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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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By the way, Chad, I was just reading my Railway Atlas of Britain and Ireland (it's for a bet) when I came across an actual place called Ramsbottom. And it's on the East Lancashire Railway! You lucky cove!
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Anyone have any guess about the origin of the expression "rob Peter to pay Paul"?
On etymonline it says:
To rob Peter to pay Paul (1515, also in early 17c. Fr. as descouvrir S. Pierre pour couvrir S. Pol) may be a ref. to the many churches dedicated to those two saints, and have sprung from the fairly common practice of building or enriching one church with the ruins or revenues of another. |
That explanation doesn't sound completely convincing. Anyone got any other ideas?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Funny you should mention competing saints, Rocky. I was wondering why village churches switch allegiance, for example Kilsby, an unimportant place except that as Dan pointed out it's at the end of a very long line. Its church was dedicated to St. Denys, then St. Andrew and finally St. Faith Anyone heard of St. Faith? Probably not. She was a Catalan or Occitan (French Catalan) saint. Why on earth would a village in Northants celebrate her?
Cathedrals remain unchanged as far as I know, think of the outcry if St. Paul's became St. Peter's. But their poorer country second cousins once removed can get away with choosing a new patron as it were, or were they forced to?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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In fact there are loads of St Faith churches mainly along the south coast, places like Saltash, near Truro, and Canterbury, no less than five in Portsmouth, three in Hereford (including a place called Dorstone) and three in St. Albans. One of the Portsmouth St Faith churches is practically opposite Hayling Island in a place called Langstone. The name says it all.
The church at Saltash, built on a hill, was dedicated to St. Nicholas and St. Faith and, unusually, was owned by the town corporation (probably after the Dissolution?) only becoming a parish church in the late nineteenth century. The church of St. Faith in Dorstone was originally dedicated to the Virgin Mary. Which brings us back to the question why churches switch from one saint to another.
Forgot to say that the mother church of Sainte Foy is the Benedictine Abbey of Sainte-Foy in Agen in Aquitaine, on the Santiago de Compostela pilgrim route. Isn't Foy a Welsh name?
Her martyrdom was gruesome, took several attempts to extinguish her life but her cult took off five hundred years later (which arouses instant suspicion):
Five centuries later, towards the end of the 8th century, a hermit called Dadon settled to a life of contemplation in that remote valley, and a community of monks joined him, following the Benedictine rules. |
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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The underlying question is surely Who's in charge? When it comes to parish churches we have to remember that (in England, dunno about elsewhere) everything is overwhelmingly in the grip of the landowner -- usually the local gentry but also monastic orders, city corporations etc etc. Like football stadiums, presumably the owners have naming rights.
But that's overground history. What we don't know is what is going on underneath, including whether anything is going on underneath. Hence, when say the Cistercians take control, a whole different set of parameters get put in place. A new vicar is appointed (the owners have complete control over this), some Green Men are carved, a few landholdings get re-assigned and....I'll leave the rest to conspiracy theorists.
PS Yes, cathedrals are a different matter because (aren't they?) they are entirely national institions beyond the control of any one interest group.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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DVD on the history of Dunstable and Houghton Regis says Henry VIII stayed at Dunstable Priory* several times, before and after his divorce from Catherine of Aragon was conducted there. I guess it was kind of in his good books because on dissolution of the monasteries, the plan was to establish the Priory as a Cathedral. So the clergy didn't disperse and everyone was all excited... 'til the money ran out and it never happened. Didn't say whose money or what happened to all the wannabe canons...
* Priory of St. Peter: him with the crossed keys, right? S'pose, at the crossroads of Watling Street and Icknield Way, it couldn't have been dedicated to anyone else.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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