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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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During the morning strategy conference Hatty pointed out that cavalry units, in which the Normans but not the Romans, Anglo-Saxons or Danes specialised, might have different considerations. Also, a defence based on force multiplication via closely spaced stongpoints was a Norman innovation.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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The model example of force multiplication always given is Thermopylae, the battle of the 300 spartans.
Coincidentally... The place of death of that model Hero.... Heracles
You turn mortals into heroes by force multiplication.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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My position in general, err, on Generals, Wade or otherwise, is to ascribe a priori rationality....
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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That is quite an interesting question. An eighteenth century general would have got there by a combination of purchase and patronage. His connection with roadbuilding would be fairly distant. In fact so was everybody's, just before the turnpike era. There was no general staff college but on the other hand the eighteenth century is generally considered the moment when the modern i.e. pretty vast army was born, and the logistics that go with it. But it was also before tin cans (Napoleonic). Then again Enlightenment Scotland was the cradle of road builders. [He rants on in this vein for some time.]
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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I get what you are saying but a road built by General Wade looks like a Roman Road. Tell me the difference.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I can't. I know that Roman roads are reputedly made to a pattern -- various sizes of stone laid over each other in a strict sequence, a standard camber, a consistent width ... er ... milestones. But form follows function so, since this is before tarmacadam and steam engines, there's no obvious reason why they should not be similar enough as to be indistinguishable. Always assuming that Wade did not use Roman roads as his guiding principle anyway. They were, in the seventeen-fifties, still the best around. In itself the best evidence that roads were just not that important to anyone, including the Normans. This is passing strange but presumably true.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Yep you have got to where I am at. The difference is, I still think Wade and the Romans built straight(er) and I still think it's military.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I don't dispute they're military. Until our own times it didn't seem to dawn on anyone that roads were a national economic asset rather than a local and necessary nuisance. In fact it still didn't dawn on anyone until the turnpike builders showed that it was. They didn't build to Roman standards because they would regard them as over-engineered for their short-term purpose -- I believe you only got the rights for a set number of years. But certainly now you could tell the difference.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Chad wrote: | But back to Sri Lanka... That causeway was built (according to Hindu legend) by the god Rama.
I speculated (in another thread) that the Romans, Roma and ancient Egyptians (R_m_t) all had a common origin.
It's obvious now that they were descendents of migrants (environmental refugees?) from the sub-continent... devotees of the God Rama. (Just as Abraham was obviously a devotee/personification of the god Brahma.)
So if the middle-eastern and Mediterranean civilisations had their roots in India, it's not inconceivable that the Phoenicians' / Megalithics' use of causewayed tidal islands had similar roots.
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If our soul is Rama (Rome)
Our ego will be Ravana (Ravenna)
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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Regarding:
| Ishmael wrote: | | What we call the Saxon invasion was the Roman invasion. Both happened at the same time. The Saxons were nothing more than Roman mercenaries. They ran the place on behalf of the empire. |
It's easy to forget that most of the "Roman" army wasn't Roman at all.
Who were the Romans in Britain?
From our school history classes, most of us have a hazy idea that the Romans were, err, Romans that arrived c.50AD, and then somehow stayed Roman for c.300 years, but then just got up and left Britain, c.400AD. This is an illusion as, apart from the elite officer corp, most "Roman" troops in Britain were not Romans. At least, certainly not Romans when they started their military service. Roman citizenship was only granted to retiring soldiers after twenty-five years of service. And many stayed in Britain when their service was complete.
How so?
It was normal practice for Roman army veterans to receive an honourable discharge after 25 years service, and receive a diplomata (documents issued to retiring soldiers). What happened next? Did they all leave Britain as well? Or did they decided to stay in Britain? Recent DNA profiling suggests that at least some Roman Auxiliary units decided they liked Britain well enough to stay, settle down with local women, and spread their DNA in specific parts of Britain.
The pioneer of this kind of DNA detective work, for British origins, has been Stephen Oppenheimer with his ground-breaking work "The Origins of the British" (2006). One year later, Steven Bird published his work on the DNA of Roman Army units in Britain:
By example (one of many):
Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin: The invasion of Britain by the Roman military in CE 43, and the subsequent occupation of Britain for nearly four centuries, brought thousands of soldiers from the Balkan peninsula to Britain as part of auxiliary units and as regular legionnaires. The presence of Haplogroup E3b1a-M78 among the male populations of present-day Wales, England and Scotland, and its nearly complete absence among the modern male population of Ireland, provide a potential genetic indicator of settlement during the 1st through 4th Centuries CE by Roman soldiers from the Balkan peninsula and their male Romano-British descendants.
Ref : Journal of Genetic Genealogy. 3(2):26-46, 2007
Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin |
Where did they comes from?
| E3b1a2 is found to be at its highest frequency worldwide in the geographic region corresponding closely to the ancient Roman province of Moesia Superior, a region that today encompasses Kosovo, southern Serbia, northern Macedonia and extreme northwestern Bulgaria. |
Where did they end up?
| The frequency of E3b in Britain was observed to be most prevalent in two regions; a geographic cluster of haplotypes extending from Wales eastward to the vicinity of Nottingham, encompassing the region surrounding Chester, and a second (NNE to SSW) cluster extending from Fakenham, Norfolk to Midhurst, Sussex. |
This figure, from the article by Steven Bird, most clearly shows the hot-spots of these Balkan genes in Britain.
Thracian soldiers in Roman Britain
In Rome’s Saxon Shore Fields (2006, p. 38) it is stated that under Severus Alexander (r. 222-235) it was thought advisable to withdraw troops from the northern frontier and place them in new forts built at Branoduno (Brancaster), Caister-on-Sea, and Regulbium (Reculver).
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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Bronze military diplomata (documents issued to retiring soldiers)
The diplomata were issued as formal retirement papers, proving that the soldiers had received an honourable discharge from the Roman Army. It also “granted Roman citizenship to retiring soldiers after twenty-five years of service”. An example was found near Malpas in Cheshire (now in the British Museum, item no.1813.12‐11.1‐2 in the Department of Prehistory and Early Europe). The translation by Collingwood in 1990 specifically mentions many different units serving in Britain, from different sources.
| Found in 1812 in the parish of Malpas in Cheshire, on a farm belonging to Lord Kenyon' (Lysons); 'in a field on the Barhill (or Barrel) Farm, in Bickley about two miles E.S.E. of Malpas' |
| The Emperor Caesar Nerva Traianus Augustus, conqueror of Germany, conqueror of Dacia, son of The Emperor Caesar Nerva Traianus Augustus, conqueror of Germany, conqueror of Dacia, son of the deified Nerva, pontifex maximus, in his seventh year of tribunician power, four times acclaimed Imperator, five times consul, father of his country, has granted to the cavalrymen and infantrymen who are serving in four alae and eleven cohorts called: (1) {ala} I Thracum and (2) I Pannoniorum Tampiana and (3) Gallorum Sebosiana and (4) Hispanorum Vettonum, Roman citizens; and (I) {cohor} I Hispanorum and (2) I Vangionum, a thousand strong, and (3) I Alpinorum and (4) I Morinorum and (5) I Cugernorum and (6) I Baetasiorum and (7) I Tungrorum, a thousand strong, and (8) II Thracum and (9) III Bracaraugustanorum and (10) III Lingonum and (11) IIII Delmatarum, and are stationed in Britain under Lucius Neratius Marcellus, who have served twenty-five or more years, whose names are written below, citizenship for themselves, their children and descendants, and the right of legal marriage with the wives they had when citizenship was granted to them, or, if any were unmarried, with those they later marry, but only a single one each. {Dated} 19 January, in the consulships of Manius Laberius Maximus and Quintus Glitius Atilius Agricola, both for the second time [CE 103]. To Reburrus, son of Severus, from Spain, decurion of ala I Pannoniorum Tampiana, commanded by Gaius Valerius Celsus. |
There's a lot there; here's my best guess at what that means in today's currency:
Roman name = Current place or country
Thracum/Thracia = Southern Balkans = Western Turkey
Pannoniorum Tampiana = Pannonia perhaps?
Gallorum Sebosiana = German?
Hispanorum Vettonum = Vettones tribe of Lusitania in Hispania (Salamanca in Spain)
Vangionum = Vangiones were a Belgic tribe from the upper Rhine
Alpinorum = Western Alpine
Morinorum = Morini tribe, from Belgica province around Gesoriacum (Boulogne, France)
Cugernorumn = Cugerni tribe of Germania Inferior
Baetasiorum = Baetasii tribe "inhabiting the lands between the Rhine and the Meuse to the immediate west of Novaesium in Germania Inferior"
Tungrorum = Gallia Belgica, today eastern Belgium and the southern Netherlands
Bracaraugustanorum = cavalry from Gallaecia, now northern Portugal
Lingonum = Gaul "in the area of the headwaters of the Seine and Marne rivers"
Delmatarum = Dalmatia (Croatia)
There's a hell of a lot of long-distance traveling to work there. This is just one diplomata, and it mentions thousands of Roman army veterans settling in Britain. How many more diplomata were there, with how many more thousands of veterans? Frere et al., stated that
| less than 20% of diploma recipients moved out of the province in which they had served upon retirement. |
In short, most stayed. This includes the famous Thracian cavalry units, who stayed and became Native Brits. All well before 410AD when Britain ceased to be an official part of the Roman Empire and was left to its own devices. These Thracian cavalry units have a large part to play in the genesis of Arthurian legends as well, right up to the modern day. e.g. the 2004 film "King Arthur".
| The film is unusual in reinterpreting Arthur as a Roman officer rather than a medieval knight. Despite these departures from the source material, the Welsh Mabinogion, the producers of the film attempted to market it as a more historically accurate version of the Arthurian legends. |
These people settled and provided continuity and stability to the communities they formed or joined, in many parts of Britain, such as Essex.
Dark (2002, pp. 97-100) has theorized that sub-Roman Essex may have survived intact until the sixth century and that the civilian authority may have transitioned smoothly from sub-Roman to Saxon authority without any evidence of struggle or the displacement of the local Romano-British population. Drury and Rodwell (1980, p.71) have provided similar evidence for the survival of sub-Roman Essex well into the Anglo-Saxon period.
Ref : Dark K (2002) Britain and the End of the Roman Empire. | |
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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The implication (as AEL well knows) is that there was no Dark Age as such. Just much-less written communication being sent back to Rome to provide a continuous written history.
But Hadrian’s Wall deserves special mention, as it is one piece of Roman Britain that is very well documented.
| Hadrian was the greatest builder in history … Following the peace that he declared, the soldiers of Rome were left without a livelihood. The large building projects offered employment to the soldiers and the placement of the temples at the corners of the Empire delineated the borders of the Hellenistic culture and kept the soldiers along the border areas, far from Rome. |
Some of the veteran Romans (from the army and auxiliary) had already retired, or had been made redundant or pensioned-off by Hadrian when he started fixing the boundaries and stopped trying to expand the Empire. This raises the firm possibility that Hadrian's Wall in Britain was not built for overtly military reasons, but to keep idle Roman troops busy with civil engineering projects. Especially as military engineering skills readily adapted to civil engineering skills.
| The troops who manned the wall, it must be remembered, were drawn from all parts of the Roman Empire; and the bulk of these forces lived here for the next 300 years or so, intermarrying freely with the British inhabitants, and regarding Northumberland and Cumberland as their home, where they continued to live after their discharge. Thus it can be stated as a matter beyond doubt that the modern inhabitants of these counties are in large part directly descended from the Roman troops; and the curious mixture of blood which must have resulted will be realized when it is remembered that here were garrisoned generations of Asturians from Spain, Batavians from the lower Rhine, cornovii from Shropshire, Dalmatians from the Adriatic, Dacians from Rumania, Frisians from Holland, Gauls, Lingones from Langres in France, Tungrians from Tongres in Belgium, and so forth. |
Ref: Wanderings in Roman Britain
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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What happened to Roman Christianity when the Romans left?
And so, we come to the Roman Estates in Britain. These Mithraic Roman estates had been well-established for up to 300 years, as agricultural communities.
These quietly morphed into Early Mithraic-Christian Communities. Or monasteries as we like to call them now. The same skills that had built Mithraic temples for Roman troops, administer a conquered territory, and managed the agricultural production and distribution, are identical to the skills needed to built early Christian chapels, churches and monasteries, and administer their huge estates. The brand name may have changed, but the contents of the package remained much the same.
It's worth noting that the Coptic/Egyptian/Celtic monastic system is notably different from the Romanised version. The former makes more of a feature of hermits and monasteries in isolated places. The Roman version tends to like more of a social life at the heart of a prosperous business, like the vast Yorkshire Cistercian sheep farming estates, owned and run by the monasteries. From where the valuable wool was exported to merchants as far as Italy. Or perhaps we should say especially Italy, given the Roman connection.
This could explain a few later curiosities. Like how the later-arriving Augustinians/ Benedictines/ Cistercians/ Premonstratensians et al (but especially the Tironensians) monastic orders managed to expand at such a phenomenal rate. Business growth by assimulation and takeovers is quicker and easier than starting from nothing.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| What happened to Roman Christianity when the Romans left? |
What happened to Roman Christianity, period. If you have any evidence of Christianity in the Roman Empire, I'd love to hear about it.
| And so, we come to the Roman Estates in Britain. These Mithraic Roman estates had been well-established for up to 300 years, as agricultural communities. |
As I understand it, Mithraicism was a well established practice in the Roman Empire, especially among the military classes.
| These quietly morphed into Early Mithraic-Christian Communities. |
Well now... there is no doubt there is an uncanny degree of overlap in the beliefs and practices between Mithraicism and Christianity. But I don't know of any--and it would be hard to tell--what a Mithraic/ Christian community would be. They may have overlaps but they are still chalk and cheese. You know, militaristic and pacifist respectively, that kind of thing.
| Or monasteries as we like to call them now. |
OK. Worth a whirl.
| The same skills that had built Mithraic temples for Roman troops, administer a conquered territory, and managed the agricultural production and distribution, are identical to the skills needed to built early Christian chapels, churches and monasteries, and administer their huge estates. The brand name may have changed, but the contents of the package remained much the same. |
Sounds AOK.
| It's worth noting that the Coptic/Egyptian/Celtic monastic system is notably different from the Romanised version. The former makes more of a feature of hermits and monasteries in isolated places. The Roman version tends to like more of a social life at the heart of a prosperous business, like the vast Yorkshire Cistercian sheep farming estates, owned and run by the monasteries. From where the valuable wool was exported to merchants as far as Italy. Or perhaps we should say especially Italy, given the Roman connection. |
A bit chalk and cheesy.
| This could explain a few later curiosities. Like how the later-arriving Augustinians/ Benedictines/ Cistercians/ Premonstratensians et al (but especially the Tironensians) monastic orders managed to expand at such a phenomenal rate. Business growth by assimulation and takeovers is quicker and easier than starting from nothing. |
Certainly a nifty idea.
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