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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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The analysis of the coin is based on more than scratch marks
Pearson and his team discovered that the Sponsian coins all bore similar patterns of microscopic wear apparent on authentic coins of the third century. A chemical analysis of the dirt caked on the coins confirmed they had been buried for a prolonged period of time.
The wear marks confirmed that the coins were handled in countless transactions over an extended time period and that they were used as a part of a monetary economy, Pearson reported. |
https://www.daviddouglas.com/blog-post/coin-analysis-confirms-existence-of-obscure-third-century-roman-emperor?srsltid=AfmBOoofA_WGrRDJVp4JSdj_8HWcP2BpVH1EzPuCxb3QMo880Fgnp2x8
Anyone who's read how forgers 'distress' objects will know a coin can't be verified as Roman because it's been jingled around and burial in soil or immersion in a solution or just water can be ways to simulate antiqueness. On the other hand if someone was minded to make a counterfeit coin, wouldn’t they go for a better known emperor rather than such an obscure one no-one’s heard of?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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There is no record of Sponsian (Red flag)
They are cast rather than produced by hammer and dies (Red flag: forgers invariably use casts, few examples of a Roman gold coin cast from that period, were the ones cast forged?)
They feature a mixture of republican and imperial symbolism (Red flag). It is not likely is it? (unless you mistakenly use the cast of one Imperal coin and then a Republican one)
The legends are gibberish (Red flag)
How come within this unique hoard there are three different emperors, based in part on the same cast by a sole manufacturer?
Unless he can show a third century Roman had a fetish in collecting unique non-standard examples of unusual badly cast and engraved, err, gold coinage..........
Against all the obvious flags he is saying they look well worn, he does not know if these coins were in circulation a day (which by his logic would mean they are fakes), a year, 300 years, 500 years, so how can he actually judge.
He keeps trying..........
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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But this Sponsian character is not in any sense a Roman emperor. He is a local honcho of Dacia. It may be that such people adopt the title of emperor as a matter of course. After all the real Roman emperors purloined the title which originally meant only 'general'.
I suppose there is the possibility that the two other coins are genuine and being used as cover for the Ringer but, unless such coins are cheap as chips, this would seem extravagant.
The AE point that tickled me was this was a case where all the hexperts were agreed it was a fake and it turns out to be kosher! A right royal reversal of roles.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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I couldn't get it up. Sorry, rephrase. Members only. OK. Behave. Don't titter.
Anyway had a look at some other articles, it's not that exciting is it?
You have some hoards found. Then postholes and a large boulder. In days of yore, the hoards would be put down to ancients burying for safe keeping, but what with the postholes we now have a cult, devil's money, on a ritualistic site (the animal sacrifice bit spices it up).
I would say (I really don't know this) that if they can prove it sits on a crossway of two ancient trackways, on a heather-covered hilltop, flanked by prehistoric burial mounds as they claim.
It fits rather nicely into ME musings.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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It's too long to put up here--especially after your faint praise--but here are some bits and bobs with my comments
Devil’s Money: Ritual Offerings at A 7th Century Cult Site
Study reveals ancient elites deposited sacred gold and jewelry for over a century
at the seventh-century Hezingen ritual site in the Netherlands |
The assumptions of elites, ritual and sacred were bad enough but what arrested my attention was 'for over a century'. The thought of people coming to and fro adding to such an enormous treasure in a hole in the ground (but nobody ever nicking it) over a span of a hundred years caused me a sharp intake of breath.
| Have you ever wondered what life was like in ancient Germania? |
That's the trouble, nobody ever does. Like life everywhere and everywhen else, I would imagine.
| Perhaps you’ve watched a documentary or movie in which the locals were systematically converted to the Christian faith in the early Medieval period. Their rituals, religious sites, and beliefs, abandoned and denounced. |
Never have, no.
| But where were these cult sites, and what rituals were practiced there? |
Where ours are and much like our own, I dare say.
| In the archeology, well-excavated open-air cult sites prior to the Christianization period are rare, especially in the Netherlands, Britain, and northern Germany. |
I don't know of any, certainly. Too bleedin' cold or wet most of the year.
| Yet such sites are key to understanding the changing and different ritual behavior of these pre-Christian groups, as contrary to popular belief, they did not all worship the same gods in the same manner at the same time as often depicted. |
I think this is pushing the evidence as to what we do know a bit far.
| A group of researchers, led by Dr. Jan-Willem de Kort in the Netherlands, recently excavated and published their findings on a 7th-century open-air cult site, Hezingen (Netherlands). A chance find by metal detectors revealed a ritual site where gold coins and jewelry were deposited for over 100 years. This practice was likely linked to the offering of diobolgeldæ, or ‘devil’s money’ in pre-Christian rituals. |
I thought the Devil was more a Christian figure but it seems I was wrong there. I include this last bit for a comment as we are trying to erase the Merovingians from our revisionist history. So I hope you can, Wiley.
| It was discovered by metal detectorists, who uncovered a Merovingian (mid-5th to 8th century ruling Frankish tribe) gold coin. Some 170 meters west of this, a second site was uncovered with 24 fragmented and complete tremisses (gold coins), as well as a gold pendant and silver earring. Finally, the metal detectorists found a third site containing even more coins around 100 meters south of Site 2. | |
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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It's a mysterious distribution, ie you get lots of claimed examples but they tend to being unique. Maybe a couple of other similar finds if you are lucky.
The early stuff are poor quality imitations of the coins issued in Constantinople. These “pseudo-imperial” coins are crude in style and attributed to “uncertain mints.”
You then get a supposed national coinage, sometimes featuring an anchory cross .......think of a cross moline (crusades?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_moline
Of the 32 Merovingian rulers 12 have coins.........
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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I include this last bit for a comment as we are trying to erase the Merovingians from our revisionist history. So I hope you can, Wiley.
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I have, a recent visitor to Tournai helped.
| In 1653, in a small Wallonian town of Tournai, builders excavating a cellar at the back of Saint Bryce’s church, across the river from the ancient city centre, came upon an immense hoard of gold, jewels and other treasure – among them, still resting on the finger bones of the individual buried with this unbelievable wealth, a golden ring with the inscription: Childerici Regis. |
We know all this, discussed in the AEL. It was a signet ring that looked like Boro on the cider.
Here was the tomb of Childeric I, the first historical ruler of the Salian Franks – and father of Clovis I, the first king of all Frankia. Here was proof that Tournai – which started out as Tornacum, a backwater Roman settlement on the road to Cologne, and ended as a somewhat backwater Belgian town on the border with France, was the birthplace of modern France, of the Carolingian Empire – of Europe itself. For the French, it was the equivalent of discovering a tomb of Uther Pendragon, King Arthur’s father – if King Arthur was real, and all the treasure within intact.
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He is buiding up.
| I visited Tournai earlier this year – along with a number of other places in Belgium and Netherlands where parts of my books take place, and it was a strange, exhilarating feeling to walk the town’s streets in the footsteps of Childeric, Clovis and Queen Basina (spoiler alert – I return to Tornacum and Frankia in “The Shieldmaiden’s Honour“). |
Tension is really unbearable.
| Today it’s a sleepy border town. Oddly enough, there’s barely any mention of its ancient royal past anywhere. |
Eh, but hang on, it's the birthplace of modern France.
| I can’t imagine an English town behave in such a way – one only needs to visit Tintagel or Glastonbury to know how many “Childeric Fries”, “Clovis Herbal Teas” or “Basina’s Roman Spa” should there be in Tournai, to bring in the tourists. I guess a real king is not as profitable as a legendary one… |
There is an alternate explanation, which is simple and obvious.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| excavating a cellar at the back of Saint Bryce’s church |
This should be in our Red and Green flags thread. It occurs time and again, so let's think about it for a moment.
1. Churches are public buildings with notoriously unfettered entry. Not the best place for stashing valuables.
2. They are uniquely old--often immeasurably old--and therefore uniquely useful for 'producing' uniquely old things.
3. They are operated by individuals and institutions with a great deal of knowledge of, indeed often control over, the past.
4. They are associated with non-mercantile aspirations and employ people with high moral values.
5. As well as being very expensive to operate.
6. They are in the--nay, the leaders of--the valuable artefact business (relics).
7. They are habitually built with areas not ordinarily visited by the public.
Any more gratefully received.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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On a technical point.
Excavating a cellar with the use of deaf mute masons is actually incredibly bad health and safety.
Still they got lucky and Adrien Quinquin struck gold.......probably because he had not heard he should have been working on another part of the cellar.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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A church can claim to be a likely spot to come across a centuries-old tomb though how the tomb of a famous king evaded public notice takes some explaining, hence perhaps the 'cellar'.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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There is actually no history to back up that this was the ancient Merovingian capital that I can find, Hats. Childeric I was never around Tournai. There is no other archaeology to back up this claim of Tournai being a royal capital.
It's a bit like the claim of Sutton Hoo to be the burial ground of a royal dynasty of East Anglia.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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It is in Wiley's view simply part of a Marion cult, I would guess the cult's likely centre was Abbey of Saint-Médard de Soissons, the crypt I would put around 1130 CE rather than the ortho 840 CE
In 1121, after a council at Soissons where he was accused of heresy, Peter Abelard was, as punishment, confined to the convent of Saint Medard.[4] In 1131 Pope Innocent II reconsecrated the rebuilt church and granted those visiting it indulgences known as "Saint Medard's pardons".
The wealth of the abbey was immense. In the 12th century the community owned about two hundred and twenty fiefs. The abbey also minted coins.
Its wealth remained into the 16th century but the abbey was destroyed in 1567 during the Wars of Religion,[5] and although it was restored in 1637, it never regained its former stature. The abbey was dissolved in the French Revolution.
The buildings had disappeared by the beginning of the 20th century, except for the still extant but almost forgotten crypt of about 840.[6] |
NB: this The abbey also minted coins.
This makes it a good candidate to be the actual source of so called Merovingian coins, and signet ring.
The whole Marion cult was popularised by Gautier de Coincy. (1177–1236)
A version of this was still going strong and reimagined and repopularised by The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail
| While Pierre Plantard claimed that the Merovingians were descended from the Tribe of Benjamin,[17] the Jesus bloodline hypothesis found in The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail instead hypothesized that the Merovingians were descended from both the Benjamin line and the Davidic line of the Tribe of Judah, as embodied in the child of Mary Magdalen by virtue of a dynastic marriage. | |
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