| View previous topic :: View next topic |
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
 |
|
|
If someone posts up an example of a Corinthian column from an Anglo Saxon church, then Wiley has wasted a coupla hours on nothing.
|
|
 |
|
 |
|
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
|
|
| Saint Hybald (fl. c. 664 – c. 690),[nb 1] also known as Higbald, Hibald or Hygbald, was a 7th-century Anglo-Saxon saint. His feastdays are 18 September and 14 December (Orthodox). |
This surely is a variant of highbrow, high birth, highness etc etc
It refers to the tonsure of an Anglo-Saxon bishop.
highbrow=intellectual elitism.
highbald=religious elitism.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
|
|
|
|
| In addition to Hibaldstow, three Lincolnshire churches are dedicated to Hybald at Ashby de la Launde, Manton and Scawby |
The villages of Hibaldstow and Manton face each other on the east and west sides of Ermine Street (the modern A15), Ashby de la Launde further south, and Scawby just to the north of Hibaldstow, are also next to Ermine St/A15. Hibald/Hybald seems to be only associated with north Lincolnshire, it may be the churches dedicated to this 'shadowy' saint were built on the sites of earlier toll points/staging posts.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
|
|
The Lichfield Angel
Folks have already had a go at this, so I thought, I would just record my own thoughts.
| In February 2003, an eighth-century sculpted panel of the Archangel Gabriel was discovered under the nave of the cathedral in and near the grave of Chad. The 600 mm-tall panel is carved from limestone from quarry at Ancaster, Lincolnshire. It was part of a stone chest, which is thought to have contained the relics of St Chad. The panel was broken into three parts but was still otherwise intact and had traces of red, black, yellow and white pigment from the period. The pigments on the Lichfield Angel correspond closely to those of the Lichfield Gospels which have been dated between 720 and 740. The Angel was first unveiled to the public in 2006, when visitor numbers to the cathedral trebled. After being taken to Birmingham for eighteen months for examination, it is now exhibited in the cathedral.[18] |
So what does the statue symbolise?
| It depicts the archangel Gabriel, likely as the left-hand portion of a larger plaque showing the annunciation, along with a lost right-hand panel of the Virgin Mary. |
I agree, it depicts the annuciation. The Archangel Gaberiel is telling the Virgin Mary that she will remain a virgin, but carry the Lord's child. It's part of a fresco that you would expect to find in a Lady Chapel, or maybe on an altar, dedicated to Mary within a Lady Chapel that is within a Gothic cathedral. The subject was clearly the Lady/Mary/Birth of Christ.
Is this really anything to do with the death of Chad?
"I have this great idea for Chad's funeral box......"
"Tell me more"
"Let's put on a scene from the annunciation"
"Hmmm"
If you look at the recent history they are very keen on upping the imaginary Chad bits, less so their connection with Mary......
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
|
For those who haven't read Meetings with Remarkable Forgeries, the significance of the angel was that it bears a striking resemblance to one depicted in the Lichfield Gospels which had to be in Wales at the appropriate time in order to have the earliest examples of written Welsh in its margins.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
|
|
The ortho account of Chad's death and relics (maybe.. it's unclear to Wiley)
Chad died in 672, and was buried.
Bishop Hedda, his successor, consecrated the first cathedral in Lichfield on his burial site in 700.
Chad's remains seem originally to have been at a Church of Saint Mary, but were then translated to a "funerary church" dedicated to St Peter in 700.
The assumption is that both of these churches (must have been close together...) were on the site later to become the cathedral at Lichfield.
Nothing survives of either church apart from a decorated cross-shaft set into the foundations on the north side of the nave.
According to Bede, 731, Chad was venerated as a saint immediately after his death, and his relics were translated to a new shrine.
Bede described the saint's shrine as a wooden coffin in the shape of a little house, with an aperture in its side through which pilgrims could put their hands to take out some of the dust.
However (bit unsure about this), by the 14th Century the cult had developed in a novel way, you could not just vist Chad's tomb in the nave, but also visit his skull, kept in a special Chad Head Chapel.
The saint's head was kept at first in a painted wooden box in 1345, but was then later encased in a gilt reliquary, possibly in the form of a mask or a complete head which could be opened up to reveal the relic of Chad's skull (a Jack In The Box arrangement). Thirdly, there were also relics of the saint in a portable shrine. It was made in the form of a model church with transepts and a bell tower, possibly a model of the cathedral itself. (like a Dolls House) It too was adorned with statues, one of St. Chad stood on the face of one of the transepts, with a gold statue of St. Catherine above, and a statue of the Virgin Mary stood on the face of the other transept.
The reliquaries were destroyed in 1538 in the general attack on pilgrimage shrines. However some parts of Chad get smuggled away and end up in Birmingham.
It seems to Wiley remakably similar to Hereford and Wells (A/S retrospective effigies) but they have very cleverly uppped the Pilgrims experience.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
If you try to picture it all happening in the 700's it's not difficult to see how everything is back projected. The most interesting part is Bede. My assumption is that Bede is a sort of compendium put together by (sometimes competing) pilgrimage centres in, say, the thirteenth century. It is different to, or a development from, the gospel book industry which is more about establishing ownership of real estate and tax breaks.
I try to picture it all myself in pp 40-9 of Forgeries. Chad himself flits in and out of various books.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
|
|
| Mick Harper wrote: | If you try to picture it all happening in the 700's it's not difficult to see how everything is back projected. The most interesting part is Bede. My assumption is that Bede is a sort of compendium put together by (sometimes competing) pilgrimage centres in, say, the thirteenth century. It is different to, or a development from, the gospel book industry which is more about establishing ownership of real estate and tax breaks.
I try to picture it all myself in pp 40-9 of Forgeries. Chad himself flits in and out of various books. |
Will take another look as it's been a while, my assumption was that "Bede" visited, say, 12th century, and reimagined or thought of as the famous 3 spires as the two early churches, St Marys and St Peters, as well as the cathedral. Hence the chapels. Different areas for different ages.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
I signed up to ChatGPT this morning and started off asking this
| Is the Book of Kells genuine? |
Yes, the Book of Kells is genuine. It is an authentic medieval manuscript, widely regarded as one of the greatest masterpieces of insular illumination (a style that developed in the British Isles after the Roman Empire). Key facts about its authenticity:
Date and origin: It was created around 800 AD, likely by Celtic monks in a Columban monastery (possibly on the island of Iona in Scotland or at Kells in Ireland).
Material: It’s written on vellum (calfskin parchment) using natural pigments and intricate decoration.
Content: The book contains the four Gospels in Latin, based on the Vulgate version, along with elaborate illustrations and ornamentation.
Historical record: It has been documented in Irish history for centuries and was preserved at the Abbey of Kells until it was moved to Trinity College Dublin in the 17th century, where it remains on display today.
There’s no serious scholarly doubt about the Book of Kells’ authenticity. It is studied and celebrated as a genuine artifact of early Christian and Irish culture.
----------
Pretty strident, but notice the only bit of real evidence offered is 'documented for centuries' before the 17th Century. So I followed up with
| Have any doubts about the genuineness of the Book of Kells been expressed recently? |
There have been no serious scholarly doubts recently about the Book of Kells being an authentic medieval manuscript. Experts continue to affirm its creation around 800 AD, by Irish or Ionan monks, and its status as one of the preeminent works of insular art
That said, some minor debates have emerged over the years—not about its authenticity, but about:
Place of origin: Was it produced entirely at Iona, entirely at Kells, or across both communities? Scholars still weigh these possibilities
Ownership and location: In the 2010s, a local activist in Kells argued that Trinity College Dublin “stole” the manuscript and campaigned for its return. This concern, however, centers on cultural stewardship, not on the book’s genuineness.
Would you like to dive deeper into the origin theories or the cultural debates?
| What about M J Harper's Meetings with Remarkable Forgeries? |
M. J. Harper’s Meetings with Remarkable Forgeries (2017) indeed argues that major early‑Christian gospel manuscripts—including the Book of Kells—are medieval forgeries from the 12th century, allegedly produced for political and ecclesiastical gain
Key Claims Harper asserts that revered manuscripts like the Book of Kells and the Lindisfarne Gospels are 12th‑centuries “forgeries,” crafted by monastic scriptoria—especially in Durham—as part of a kind of “Thomas Cook” enterprise serving pilgrims.
He even broadly challenges medieval chronologies, languages (including Latin and Greek), and the foundations of historical archaeology and linguistics
Scholarly Response & Criticism Mainstream academia dismisses Harper’s claims. There's no peer‑reviewed support for downgrading the Book of Kells from its 8th‑ to 12th‑century origin.
Critics note Harper’s work ignores established palaeographic, radiocarbon (^14C), pigment, and codicological studies that firmly date the Book of Kells to around 800 AD.
Mathematician Peter Cameron quipped after getting the book unsolicited: “He mentions ‘my long‑term goal of getting the universities abolished’, which hardly endears him… universities needn’t start quaking in their boots just yet.”
Bottom Line: Harper’s book is a radical fringe theory, lacking support from archaeological dating, manuscript analysis, or scholarly publishing. His claims are widely rejected or ignored by experts on the Book of Kells, medieval scriptoria, and early medieval history.
So while it’s a provocative read, it does not introduce any credible doubt about the authenticity of the Book of Kells.
Would you like more details on the established methods that date the manuscript or the mainstream scholarly consensus on its origins?
---------
I did learn something though. How can it be carbon dated to 'before 14th century'? I would have thought any self-respecting AI would have spotted that. So anyway I answered, 'Yes'
----------
Great! Here's a clear overview of the mainstream scholarly methods and evidence that firmly date the Book of Kells to around 800 AD, and validate its authenticity:
✅ 1. Palaeography (Study of Ancient Handwriting) Scholars compare the script used in the Book of Kells to other dated manuscripts.
| A circular argument of mighty proportions |
Its distinctive Insular majuscule handwriting style is consistent with 8th- to early 9th-century works like the Lindisfarne Gospels and the Book of Durrow.
| And which any calligrapher can manage in his sleep |
These comparisons are a cornerstone of dating medieval manuscripts, and Kells fits squarely into this tradition.
| They've boxed themselves into a corner there and no mistake |
✅ 2. Codicology (Physical Structure of Manuscripts)
The manuscript is made of high-quality vellum (calfskin), typical of early medieval Irish and British monastic production.
| That's really hard to find |
The binding, quire structure, and layout match techniques used between the 7th and 9th centuries.
| So forgers would know exactly the ones to use |
Later manuscripts, like those from the 12th century, used different page layouts and ruling systems.
| So forgers would know exactly the ones not to use |
✅ 3. Illumination Style
The artwork is a prime example of Insular art, a style that flourished between 600–900 AD in Irish and Northumbrian contexts.
| Well, I suppose Iona is halfway between Ireland and Northumbria |
Its intricate Celtic knotwork, interlace patterns, and animal motifs are all stylistically consistent with 8th-century monastic art.
No known 12th-century manuscript attempts to imitate this earlier style so closely or with such authenticity.
✅ 4. Textual Evidence
The Latin text follows a mix of Vulgate and Old Latin versions of the Gospels, which is typical of pre-Carolingian Irish and British gospel manuscripts.
| Why would they do that then? |
Later medieval manuscripts tend to follow the standardized Vulgate alone, reflecting Roman reforms post–Carolingian Renaissance.
✅ 5. Provenance and Historical References
The Book of Kells is referenced in historical records from the 11th and 12th centuries, already being treated as a sacred relic by that time.
| Actually I wasn't aware of these. I'll have to get Hatty onto it. |
It was housed in the Abbey of Kells by at least the 11th century and likely created earlier at Iona, a monastic center linked to St. Columba.
| That's the one nobody can find despite Iona being searched more intensely than anywhere other than Lindisfarne |
✅ 6. Scientific Testing (Radiocarbon Dating and Pigment Analysis)
While radiocarbon testing has been limited to preserve the manuscript, indirect scientific analysis supports an 8th–9th century dating.
Pigment analysis shows the use of early medieval inks and minerals such as orpiment, indigo, and lapis lazuli—some of which were imported from as far as Afghanistan, consistent with what we know about monastic trade routes during that period.
| Iona to Afghanistan in the eighth century reminds me of Victoria Coach Station to Nepal in the twentieth. | |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
The Library Index 
FAQ 
Search
Register
Profile 
Log in to check your private messages 
Log in 
