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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| That may be Mick 'cause Robin was basically a byword for Devil in the middle ages |
Now that might explain the impassioned stance of those who 'believe' in Arthur and the bemusement of non-believers. (When England finally embraced Protestantism at the end of the seventeenth century, was Robin quietly relegated to a corner of the nursery?)
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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A quick look at Google confirmed my suspicions, the "devil" association is a recent(ish) overlay of a pagan figure... The pagan trickster was reimagined in Old English puca (Christianized as "devil") as a kind of half-tamed woodland sprite, leading folk astray with echoes and lights in nighttime woodlands (like the Celtic/French "White Ladies", the Dames Blanches), or coming into the farmstead and souring milk in the churn.
Robin Goodfellow aka Puck goes back long before the devil.
| Puck's euphemistic "disguised" name is "Robin Goodfellow" or "Hobgoblin",[5] in which "Hob" may substitute for "Rob" or may simply refer to the "goblin of the hearth" or hob. The name Robin is Middle English in origin, deriving from Old French Robin, the pet form for the name Robert. The earliest reference to "Robin Goodfellow" cited by the Oxford English Dictionary is from 1531. |
The OED isn't particularly helpful, viz:
Significantly for such a place-spirit or genius, the Old English word occurs mainly in placenames, which strongly suggests that the Puca was older in the landscape of Britain than the language itself. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the etymology of the name Puck is "unsettled", and it is not even clear whether its origin is Germanic (cf. Old Norse puki,) or Celtic (Welsh pwca[1] and Irish p�ca). A logical inference would surmise that the Proto-Indo-European origin for both is earlier than the linguistic split.[2]
In Ireland, "puck" is said to be sometimes used for "goat". |
The reference to 'souring the milk' in connection with Puck/Robin's mischief-making is interesting and the term 'Hobgoblin', very much a domestic trickster. Shakespeare of course popularised the name for posterity but he was clearly already established in the folklore (Kipling called him "the oldest thing in England"), more familiar to us as Peter Pan. I suspect the Robin Hood legend has a different genesis more akin to the Green Man than Pan.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Hob-gob-lin = Rob-gob-lin? = Rob-wob-rin?
= Rob Roy?
| The editors of Wikipedia wrote: | | Robert Roy MacGregor, (baptized March 7, 1671 � December 28, 1734) usually known simply as Rob Roy or alternately Red MacGregor, was a famous Scottish folk hero and outlaw of the early 18th century, who is sometimes known as the Scottish Robin Hood. Rob Roy is anglicised from the Scottish Gaelic Raibeart Ruadh, or Red Robert. This is because Rob Roy had red hair, though it darkened to auburn in later life. |
All sounds like "Rob-Rob-in" or "Rob Rob-bir" (n and r being cognate as well).
Our word "robber" probably derives from this character. They are all the same. Obviously, two Scots made separate attempts to turn Rob-Robber into an historical personage so we end up with William Wallace and Rob Roy.
Note that in both characters we have the alliteration of the same sound (RR/WW) in their names, as R and W are cognate.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| Throwing swords, bronze ones, into lakes was a favoured though expensive Bronze Age pastime. |
Geoff, have you any idea when the "sword and anvil" part of the legend dates from?
Drawing a sword from a stone could mean a bronze sword from a stone mould, but a sword drawn from an anvil can only be an iron one. 'Course, the mythic element of the magic of metallurgy remains the same.
| The pagan trickster was reimagined in Old English puca... |
I was gonna say Pag(an) = Puc/Puck... pagan = payan = Pan... all to do with the countryside, woodland spirits and wotnot... but you mentioned (Peter) Pan yourself, Hatty.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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I was musing on Old King Cole, the merry old (pagan) soul, who also played pipes though not specifically Pan pipes. One of my guests on New Year's Eve snuck out and then rang the bell at midnight, bursting in with a lump of coal, which he reckoned is a Scottish custom (is it, AJ?). Coal has certain devilish associations and also played a part in the treatment meted out to heretics.
Hobgoblins might have a relation to coal mining in the same way dwarves are associated with metallurgy.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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According to Doctor Johnson, Scots people are too mean to burn coal so they share the one bit. Each household gets to hold it for one year.
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TelMiles
In: London
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Also Hatty, did you know that the "old king cole" mentioned is supposed to be a northern British warlord called "Coel-Hen"? he held lands in Scotland. So..ummm yea.
_________________
Against all Gods.
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J Robinson
In: The Shires
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| Ishmael wrote: | Hob-gob-lin = Rob-gob-lin? = Rob-wob-rin?
= Rob Roy?
| The editors of Wikipedia wrote: | | Robert Roy MacGregor, (baptized March 7, 1671 � December 28, 1734) usually known simply as Rob Roy or alternately Red MacGregor, was a famous Scottish folk hero and outlaw of the early 18th century, who is sometimes known as the Scottish Robin Hood. Rob Roy is anglicised from the Scottish Gaelic Raibeart Ruadh, or Red Robert. This is because Rob Roy had red hair, though it darkened to auburn in later life. |
All sounds like "Rob-Rob-in" or "Rob Rob-bir" (n and r being cognate as well).
Our word "robber" probably derives from this character. They are all the same. Obviously, two Scots made separate attempts to turn Rob-Robber into an historical personage so we end up with William Wallace and Rob Roy.
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Just a little bit of local trivia to back you up on this, Ish.
On the moor here, we have the gravestone of the last highwayman to be hanged at the scene of his crime. The name on the gravestone is 'Robert Snooks'.
However, his name was actually James Snooks, but he was known by the public as 'Robber Snooks' resulting in the corruption of that name on his grave stone.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Ishmael wrote: | Our word "robber" probably derives from this character. |
"robe" also comes to mind, to do with disguise (theatrical), as in French robe meaning 'dress' like the frocks concealing priests' manly attributes. Robert in French is pronounced 'rob-bear'. (Why do Scotsmen parade around in skirts?)
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| ...as in French robe meaning 'dress' |
Pronounced (near enough) "rob", of course.
They do reckon robe to mean robbed-off booty. Dunno whether that's finery in general and fine clothes in particular, or whether there was a roaring trade in any old stolen clothes.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Dan wrote: | They do reckon robe to mean robbed-off booty. Dunno whether that's finery in general and fine clothes in particular, or whether there was a roaring trade in any old stolen clothes. |
Robber may be connected with reeve, a kind of bailiff and a deeply unpopular official presumably, like the biblical tax-collector, who would be seen as robbing people of their goods. A reeve was also a steward.
REEVE - The name of an ancient English officer of justice, inferior in rank to an alderman.
He was a ministerial officer, appointed to execute process, keep the king's peace, and put the laws in execution. He witnessed all contracts and bargains; brought offenders to justice, and delivered them to punishment; took bail for such as were to appear at the county court, and presided at the court or folcmote. He was also called gerefa.
There were several kinds of reeves as the shire-gerefa, shire-reeve or sheriff; the heh-gerefa, or high-sheriff, tithing-reeve, burgh or borough-reeve.
As a verb, reeve was similar to weave (p.p. wove), viz:
To pass, as the end of a pope, through any hole in a block, thimble, cleat, ringbolt, cringle, or the like.
And there's reave (p.p. reft) as in bereave.
To seize and carry off forcibly.
To deprive (one) of something; bereave.
which ties in with the concept of deprivation and dispossession. It also carries a sense of rightness, or lack of... reft/rect/right.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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REEVE (O. E. gerefa)
Gerefa sounds more like sheriff than Reeve which is thought to predate sheriff. Gerefa/jefe (= chief)/Jerez as in Jerez de la Frontera. Jerez means sherry in English, the preferred drink of the gentry rather than of the lower orders. Maybe it was 'sherry, sheriff?' in the shires before the tamer 'more tea, vicar?'.
Losing the shirt off your back is the ultimate in humiliating dispossession, like being dis-robed.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Hatty wrote: | | Losing the shirt off your back is the ultimate in humiliating dispossession, like being dis-robed. |
Reminds me also of Christ's command to give also the undergarment to the one who "asks" for the robe. Is he referring to robbers demanding their victim's robes?
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| Robber may be connected with reeve |
Perhaps we get roughed up (ruffed up) by robbers and reeves...?
| A reeve was also a steward. |
Note that rough has also been spelled row {both of which might be pronounced 'roe' or 'ruff'!? See how it's terribly straightforward to work out what people said from what they wrote -- not.} which reminds me of (musical) staff/stave that we found to be connected to steward. Stewards and reeves maintaining order in things...
Note that tax is also about the proper arrangement of things, fixed allotments and so on.
As a verb, reeve was similar to weave (p.p. wove), viz:
To pass, as the end of a rope, through any hole in a block, thimble, cleat, ringbolt, cringle, or the like. |
A separate, R = W reeve, perhaps? They reckon this nautical reave has to do with reef and rib. (V = F = P = B.)
| And there's reave (p.p. reft) as in bereave. |
Reaved, reived, reft "from the Germanic base also of rob". Also reave or rive, to tear, split, burst: rift.
The OED would be rather short if we reduced all these variations to a single entry!
| Gerefa sounds more like sheriff than Reeve which is thought to predate sheriff. |
Ge- is a typical German prefix, innit, equivalent to a-, formerly spelled y-.
(Gerefa suggests a short-cut between grieve/grief and bereave/bereft?)
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| Reminds me also of Christ's command to give also the undergarment to the one who "asks" for the robe. Is he referring to robbers demanding their victim's robes? |
'Spect so. Plus, the clothed man represents the unenlightened, unredeemed man, innit?
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