Scotching the Scotch : from the east or from the west? (British History)

[Mick Harper]

Fair comment, Ish, but I think we ought to let these two...er...orthodox creatures take chunks out of each other for a bit. So long as it is done in a spirit of cheerful enmity.

[Duncan]

Mick, you acknowledge the central position of Avebury on the St Michael line BUT discount any of Michell's ideas about earth energy/magnetism. It seems to me that you accept the existence of these mysterious lines whilst seeing their purpose as being entirely different from that proposed by Michell.

Why are you so willing to accept the existence of imaginary, hypothetical lines without acknowledging the purpose attributed to them by their proponents? Is this not an example of the O-E (Orthodox Epistemology) principle called 'having your cake and eating it'?

[Mick Harper]

[Duncan]

Fair enough. So what is the purpose of ley lines then?

[Oliver Gillie]

[AJMorton]

[Mick Harper]

Caught me aht? That's a good one. Naturally, being a polymath, I knew all about this Victorian knitwear business. But threading stuff together involves making some pretty evanescent connections to start with and seeing where they lead. With any luck we can chuck out the wretched Scotch once we really get going. But certainly not yet awhile. Not until we find out who these wretched Scotch are. As you say, Ollie, kilts seem historically to have been worn strictly by the Gaelic half of Scotland so we do have a tentative link between Celts and Tochians.

[Oliver Gillie]

Yes Gillie is Gaelic for "boy" which was also used as a word for servant as in the French "garcon" for waiter. And is now used as the word of a Highland servant who helps with stalking etc. So now you have me classified. It reveals my origins as do others' surnames like Gardener, Service, Footman, etc. So what is a Harper. Is that someone who plays the Harp or could it be someone who harps on - and on - about stuff. I hope that is funny enough for me not to be scratched out for rudeness because I find your obsessions interesting and want to continue.

Yes the tartan theme is a bit of an embarrassment these days and could scarcely be less fashionable if you are cool. Victorians made a special connection with Scots because Victoria loved Scotland and liked to visit Balmoral where she loved her gillie, John Brown. Victoria liked the down to earth peasants she met and enjoyed country dancing.

However let's get away from the point scoring. I think there could be a rich vein for you here, Mick, in thinking about the Scots language. My understanding is that after George IV's visit to Scotland the ladies of Edinburgh became intrigued with all things English and began to take elocution lessons to learn to speak English English instead of the English of Robbie Burns or something similar.

Actually Scots is a major variant of English and so may tell us something about origins of the language. Here is Burns' poem "To a Mouse". Whilst ploughing on a November day, Burns ruined the nest of a field mouse. He ponders why the creature runs away in such terror.

Wee, sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beastie,
O, what a panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an' chase thee,
Wi' murd'ring pattle!

I doubt na, whiles, but thou may thieve;
What then? poor beastie, thou maun live!
A daimen icker in a thrave
'S a sma'request;
I'll get a blessin wi' the lave,
An' never miss't!

If you want to study more of this go to [email protected] but here is a translation into English English by William Curran

Oh, tiny timorous forlorn beast,
Oh why the panic in your breast ?
You need not dart away in haste
To some corn-rick
I'd never run and chase thee,
With murdering stick.

I do not doubt you have to thieve;
What then? Poor beastie you must live;
One ear of corn that's scarcely missed
Is small enough:
I'll share with you all this year's grist,
Without rebuff.

My point? Chaucer is easier to understand once his spelling has been corrected than is Robert Burns. And Burns in his letters wrote more or less normal English. In his poems he is writing in Scotch, Scots dialect, or Lallans or whatever you want to call it, but he also wants to be understood by gentry and so it is probably not as broad as it could have been. An English person unfamiliar with Scots dialect even today cannot understand it when spoken.

So I wonder how many words there are in Old Scots (which I imagine is a degree more different than Burns poems) that are cognate with English. How many are cognate with Norse, Dutch, Danish, etc. And anyway is vocabulary the best clue to similarity of language. I have the feeling from Burns' poems that the language structure is the same as English. French language structure also feels pretty close to English while German language structure seems to be different.

But this all goes beyond what I know well or have time to research. However I hope Mick that you might have the time and interest to look into it and extend the ideas in your book. There must be quite extensive documents in old, or I should probably say Auld, Scots which may provide further clues to the origins of English but may not have been dissected as yet by applied epistemology.

Hope you might have time to look at it or perhaps another correspondent can take up this theme.
cheers, Oliver

[Ishmael]

[Ishmael]

Chaucer is easier to understand than this?

I doubt na, whiles, but thou may thieve;
What then? poor beastie, thou maun live!
A daimen icker in a thrave
'S a sma'request;
I'll get a blessin wi' the lave,
An' never miss't!

No wonder! This is not real! This is phoney. Just look at it!

" 'S a sma'request; "

No written language is written this way. This is, instead, someone obviously already fully aware of his own supposed native dialect in juxtaposition with that of the wider standard and has, with purpose, taken to adapting some widely accepted phonetic key to rendering that accent in written form. Probably intentionally exaggerating the difference for the sake of entertainment.

He's probably chosen his rhymes for their contrast with typical English rhymes, for the purpose of humour.

If Robbie Burns really was a Scotsman (and on the basis of this excerpt I rather doubt he was) then he certainly wasn't writing for Scotsmen. If he was, he would not have tried to capture the inflection of the accent.

Now wouldn't that be funny if I'm right.

I'll put money on it that I am.

[Oliver Gillie]

Good point - Burns was probably writing for the Edinburgh ladies and their daughters who had been given elocution lessons - so he needed to emphasise the difference in pronunication and so establish authenticity as a Scots poet. But Burns is only a convenient stepping stone that is easily available to us - it is Auld Scots that may give us some real clues about the origins of English and I believe there should be many documents available in Auld Scots. And by the way Ishmael maybe you can tell us if Yiddish could give us some clues about the origin of German - and ultimately English.

[Ishmael]

[Mick Harper]

[DPCrisp]

[DPCrisp]