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Apologies if this topic has already been aired (it will take me some time to get through the AE Library), but has anyone any hypotheses about their meaning ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cup_and_ring_mark
Representation of meteorite shower?
Henge & Avenue?
Mesolithic erotica?
Can't be random doodles because they are consistent but widespread geographically.
I suppose this could be filed under 'Megalithic' rather than as a separate topic.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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There is a detailed explanation of these in The Megalithic Empire by Harper and Vered. I do not myself necessarily agree with the explanation the authors offer but it is an interesting one.
PS Please, Aurelius, do not fall into this staccato style of paragraphing that both Boreades and Wiley go in for. I know it's handy when you can't order your thoughts but it is much better to force yourself to order your thoughts.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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Aurelius, don't be put off by Mick Sturbs' abuse. He doesn't get out much, and if he didn't have our contributions to argue with, he would have a lot less content.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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Tool sharpening.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Tool sharpening?? Explain!!
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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I was watching America Unearthed on TLC and they showed a stone from the New World (Georgia?) with exactly these same sort of markings.
Here is the Georgia "Star Map":
Here's the info:
Did Maya Carve Petroglyph Boulder in Georgia?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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You know what's most fascinating about the claims on this Web site?
That the Maya used the same symbols for the constellations as did Europeans!!!
What the fuck?
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| Ishmael wrote: | You know what's most fascinating about the claims on this Web site?
That the Maya used the same symbols for the constellations as did Europeans!!!
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I'm not sure we can read too much into this, fascinating though the link is.
Scorpio is one of the very few constellations which actually resembles the animal it is supposed to represent. It also contains several bright stars including the first magnitude, and distinctly red, Antares. This constellation would be much more prominent at the latitude of Pelenque, a mere 17 degrees North of the Equator.
Draco, on the other hand, if it is the same snake like formation as the one the Maya/Olmecs listed in their sky, is straggly and generally more feint. I checked how visible this Northern circumpolar constellation would be at latitude 20 degrees in the hemisphere. The head would be below the horizon from October to February and the figure is not fully above the horizon until April-August.
The other thing is, when the circumpolar Draco is relatively high above the northern horizon in the Mexican sky, Scorpio would be towards the south.
I expect in Toronto, as in southern UK, Scorpio is only seen low on the southern horizon during high summer.
There is another snakey constellation in the European tradition though - Serpens Cauda/Serpens Caput, which is about 20 degree north of Scorpio.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I think Aurelius has knocked this one on the head. Despite hoping otherwise (and speaking otherwise at the Glastonbury conference) I am gradually losing faith in these supra-diffusion theories.
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For the record:
"The less known, but no less significant constellations consisted of two turtles, two crosses, two trees, two houses, a bowl, a plate, a snake, a scorpion and a ballcourt. Some we can see a direct link with our zodiac, as in the case of the scorpion-Scorpio. Many are not clear as to the connections. For instance, we do not have an equivalent to the ballcourt, a feature that is central to their view of the cosmos."
http://syzygyastro.hubpages.com/hub/The-Thirteen-Maya-Olmec-Constellations
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | I think Aurelius has knocked this one on the head. Despite hoping otherwise (and speaking otherwise at the Glastonbury conference) I am gradually losing faith in these supra-diffusion theories. |
Really?
Obviously the star map was made when Central America and Georgia were at a completely different latitude.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| aurelius wrote: | | [Scorpio is one of the very few constellations which actually resembles the animal it is supposed to represent. |
Baloney. A constellation includes only the stars one opts to include within it and resembles an infinite number of objects and elements of our universe. Even if the other constellations were represented by different objects, if they employed the same stars that in itself is significant.
It doesn't surprise me that symbols were retained for the constellations that, by your own characterization, most closely followed the body structure of the form selected by Europeans. Locals would be most prone to choosing other forms where the inherited association was less aesthetically pleasing or alien to their culture.
Sorry. But if that scorpion is Scorpio then it's simply unassailable: Somebody got that symbol from somebody else. I'm simply not smart enough to invent a more intellectual accounting for it.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| But if that scorpion is Scorpio then it's simply unassailable: |
This is obviously correct. I am fairly confident that the connection will be much looser than reported.
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| But if that scorpion is Scorpio then it's simply unassailable |
We may never know.
"After the cultural devastation created by the Great Collapse in the ninth century and the Spanish Conquest in the sixteenth, most of the knowledge of Maya cosmology has been lost. No ancient Maya constellation catalogue or astronomical thesis has ever been discovered." (From 13 Olmec Constellations: Models For A Civilisation")
As you say,
| A constellation includes only the stars one opts to include within it |
So it's not unassailably Scorpius.
What is known is about 250,000 people are stung by scorpions in Mexico every year, some fatally. Hardly surprising that the creature loomed large, as far as an earlier culture in that land was concerned.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I will leave this to you, Ishmael.
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