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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| aurelius wrote: |
but apparently it lists some stations along Hadrians Wall (for example) whereas the charts are only concerned with coasts and harbours (apparently). |
Really the same thing.
| On line wrote: | harbor (n.)
"lodging for ships; sheltered recess in a coastline," early 12c., a specialized sense of Middle English herberwe "temporary dwelling place, quarters, lodgings; an inn; the camp of an army in the field," probably from Old English here-beorg (West Saxon), *here-berg (Anglian) "lodgings, quarters," from Proto-Germanic compound *harja-bergaz "shelter, lodgings," from *heri "army, host" (see harry (v.)) + *burzjan- "protection, shelter" (see bury (v.)). Perhaps modeled on Old Norse herbergi "room, lodgings, quarters."
harbor (v.)
Old English herebeorgian "take up quarters, lodge, shelter oneself" (cognate with Old Norse herbergja, Old High German heribergon, Middle Dutch herbergen), verbal formation from here-beorg "lodgings, quarters" (see harbor (n.)). Meaning "give shelter to, protect" is from mid-14c. Figuratively, of thoughts, etc., from late 14c. Related: Harbored; harboring. |
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So Wile, you are saying the Cosmography is more like a practical gazetteer cum manual? The same function as the charts had for the sailors but in a different format ? No problem with that.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Interestingly the Mappa Mundi
http://www.medievalists.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/hereford_mappa_mundi.jpg
is accorded the same estimated date of creation, about 1290 - but the medieval purpose of a 'map' appears to be religio-mytho-political (as the M. M. demonstrates) and so cannot be compared with a practical 'chart' on which a sailor's life or livelihood depended.
One could say that the medieval 'map' was a device used by the establishment to hoodwink the general populace.
But going back to Ishmael's original post, didn't mariners navigate by the sun (during the day) or the stars before the compass was developed in the thirteenth century ?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Yep.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| One could say that the medieval 'map' was a device used by the establishment to hoodwink the general populace. |
Perhaps one shouldn't. A great many ill-informed people impute base motives to Our Masters so it is important for AE practitioners to do so only when they have evidence. What is your evidence, Aurelius? Or if you have no evidence, why would they? What's to be gained?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Mick Harper wrote: |
Wiley, I'm not used to having my work quoted in authoritative circles. |
| Megalithic Empire wrote: | | The resmblance between a stone circle and a compass face stands out |
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Nobody seems to have leapt to the conclusion that I (and perhaps most people here) would which is that portolans (at least the ones he is talking about) are modern forgeries. |
Exactly my thought.
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | One could say that the medieval 'map' was a device used by the establishment to hoodwink the general populace. |
Perhaps one shouldn't. A great many ill-informed people impute base motives to Our Masters so it is important for AE practitioners to do so only when they have evidence. What is your evidence, Aurelius? Or if you have no evidence, why would they? What's to be gained? |
No hard evidence, Mick. But we all know there was resistance to the education of the masses even in Victorian times.
This is from a thorough treatise on Mappaemundi and other medieval maps/charts:
"The monumental size and method of display of some of these world maps suggest that there was also a public iconographic role: thus the Agrippa map of about 100 A.D. (Book I, #118) may have stood for the dominance of the Roman Empire over most of the European world. Medieval literature and the mappaemundi both mirrored this classical symbolism and adapted this function to religious ends. The medieval romances, particularly those describing the exploits of the classical heroes, frequently use a mappamundi as a symbol of military dominance. In medieval religious life, a mappamundi might stand as a representation of the world, for the transitoriness of earthly life, the divine wisdom of God, the body of Christ, or even God himself. The God-like image is best seen in the Ebstorf map (#226), where the head, hands, and feet of Christ are represented at the four cardinal directions, with the map itself standing for the body of Christ."
http://www.cartographic-images.net/Cartographic_Images/EM_Introduction.html
Geometric/geographic accuracy was not the aim of the medieval mapmaker, rather it was to provide a visual narrative,
"In the Middle Ages, the word mappamundi (especially the oral word) was predominant over the image and was prescribed as such by the nature of the biblical narrative and the views of the early church fathers. Saint Gregory the Great stated that pictures were for the illiterate what the Scriptures were for those who could read."
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Anything too accurate for its time must be assumed a forgery. To overcome this assumption, truly overwhelming evidence is required. Moreover, a thesis is needed to explain how the information was lost to subsequent generation and this thesis requires evidence of equal measure.
That is not the case here.
These maps are forgeries.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| But we all know there was resistance to the education of the masses even in Victorian times. |
You're at it again. Who was doing the resisting? You say 'the establishment'. Go on, tell us who these people were? I thought the Victorians rather had a passion for educating the lower orders.
| Geometric/geographic accuracy was not the aim of the medieval mapmaker, rather it was to provide a visual narrative, |
Well, since they didn't have accurate maps for technical reasons (or for some areas, no maps at all) then it seems reasonable to fall back on 'a visual narrative'. It's for you to say why this is evidence of 'hoodwinking'. You have provided evidence that various governments used maps for various purposes, so does ours, so do geographers. Again, where is the hoodwinking?
The reason I am pursuing this, Aurelius, is that 'fear of dark forces' is an absolute barrier to clear thought. It's something I deal with constantly in my Unreliable History because most of the errors about the Second World War derive from the fact that that everybody proceeds on the basis that the Nazis were bad guys (and therefore we were the good guys).
This would be harmless enough if that was the extent of it but it isn't. People, historians and policymakers included, draw all kinds of conclusions on the basis of good and bad rather than the facts of the case. You must start to take on your own particular set of demons.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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On the other hand...
What would count as iron-clad evidence of authenticity would be the presence of a technology in the maps that was unknown at the time the maps enter the historical record (the time of the alleged forgery). If the existence of such a technology could be proved--and its workability demonstrated--where this could not have been known by any forger, we have clear evidence that the maps are genuine artifacts.
Now where I would go looking for technology is precisely where everyone else perceives only ritual.
| The God-like image is best seen in the Ebstorf map (#226), where the head, hands, and feet of Christ are represented at the four cardinal directions, with the map itself standing for the body of Christ." |
A link between the scriptures and the heavens, and with the techniques of navigation is precisely what I have been long suspecting. In fact, I suspect that the technique preceded the theology and the stories proceed from navigational narratives used as mnemonic devices (not a new idea). Find that in the maps and demonstrate that it is rational and workable and you have something.
The representation of Christ's head, hands and feet and link with specific directions may be a clue!
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Mary washes the feet of Christ. Christ washes the feet of the disciples. What direction is the foot?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | The reason I am pursuing this, Aurelius, is that 'fear of dark forces' is an absolute barrier to clear thought. It's something I deal with constantly in my Unreliable History because most of the errors about the Second World War derive from the fact that that everybody proceeds on the basis that the Nazis were bad guys (and therefore we were the good guys). |
The b*stards took down Granny's ceiling during the war. I don't plan to forgive them.
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