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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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The bloke who introduced the Greek alphabet (also very bird-like) was called Cadmus. The bloke what wrote the first bit of English was called Caedmon and he wrote in runes. Despite the obvious legendary nature of these people, Anglo-Saxon scholars actually believe Caedmon was a real person.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Looks like this developed out of some sort of tally system for counting. |
Wiki says that in Egyptian mythology, Thoth is said to have won the five extra days in the 365-day calendar by gambling with the moon
| Thoth gambled with the Moon for 1/72nd of its light (360/72 = 5), or 5 days, and won |
The earth it seems moves one degree in a 72-year cycle relative to the other stars -- if this is so, it would have navigational implications. 72 hours is three days which seems to have all kinds of religious/mystical significance (in particular, 'Thrice-great Hermes' and the phoenix, not to mention Jesus, rising from the ashes after three days)
Phoenix in Arabic is Anqa. An ankh?
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| How and when did Greek or Phoenician 'pyrg' get transliterated into the Germanic and other languages, including Persian, Maghreb, Levant etc? |
A realistic answer or reasonable theory based on evidence would be appreciated.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| frank h wrote: | | How and when did Greek or Phoenician 'pyrg' get transliterated into the Germanic and other languages, including Persian, Maghreb, Levant etc? |
A realistic answer or reasonable theory based on evidence would be appreciated. |
I think you will find that the Germans think this stems from Burgh, the Persians from Borj, so both sides can agree that the answer is Byzantine Greece.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| frank h wrote: | | How and when did Greek or Phoenician 'pyrg' get transliterated into the Germanic and other languages, including Persian, Maghreb, Levant etc? |
A realistic answer or reasonable theory based on evidence would be appreciated. |
There again Ish would write, something like P=B, explain that the Middle Ages didn't exist, and point out the similarity of the shape of the letters. (?)
I might be wrong, but I least try to fathom what he is talking about.
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | | so both sides can agree that the answer is Byzantine Greece. |
But where geographically was the trading link of the Greeks to northern Europe, sea or land routes?.
As mentioned in this thread some time ago, maybe the French cities Paris and Troyes provide a clue. Perhaps they went further to say Hamburg region and picked up on the Baltic amber trade.
But sadly I'm speculating here, it's not evidence.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | | There again Ish would write, something like P=B |
P and B even sound alike (if the P is not pronounced like "F").
And you should indeed not assume any timeline when analyzing language relationships.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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| But where geographically was the trading link of the Greeks to northern Europe, sea or land routes?. |
Is there anything similar sounding in Hebrew/Phoenician?
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| Chad wrote: | | But where geographically was the trading link of the Greeks to northern Europe, sea or land routes?. |
Googling - the main Amber Road (Bernsteinstrasse) was an overland/rivers route, apparently very ancient starting near St Petersburg, through Danzig, Vienna, Trieste and Venice and on to the Med and Black Sea. It is seemingly a route lined with bork and grad villages (stopping stations?).
Other similar old trade roads cross Germany/Poland to the lower Rhine and Elbe rivers.
Perhaps ancient Greeks and other southern based traders used the route to the Baltic, stopping at 'pyrg' rest places, and subsequently adopted into the Germanic languages?.
How to spot the first pyrgs is a tough ask though. The bork are probably the Goths and grad the Slav traders.
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| Ishmael wrote: | | P and B even sound alike (if the P is not pronounced like "F"). |
The convention is that the Germanic berg(mountain) led to burg(protection/stronghold).
Pyrg in Greek is tower and can mean fort.
How could this same reduction to stronghold independently occur in both languages if say, the original meaning of tower = height?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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So a pidgeon (pyrg-eon) perhaps is a bird that inhabits a tower.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Ishmael wrote: | | So a pidgeon (pyrg-eon) perhaps is a bird that inhabits a tower. |
Yes.
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| Ishmael wrote: | | So a pidgeon (pyrg-eon) perhaps is a bird that inhabits a tower. |
Apparently the underlying meaning of burg(stronghold) and berg(mountain) in the Germanic languages is 'protection'.
The 6th century BC Phoenician 'pyrgi' near Rome was a port with walls and ditches. Perhaps also rendering the meaning as a place of 'protection'.
A bird tower could similarly be a place that protects birds. Hence the modern Greek 'pyrgos' for tower, I suppose.
It still does not explain how it got into German though, along a trade route seems likely. But how? Solid evidence not speculation would be welcomed.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I expect Frank knows all about this
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| Mick Harper wrote: | I expect Frank knows all about this
Atlas for Hillforts Project |
It seems to be a joint project to be carried out by Oxford and Edinburgh unis.
Not much actual digging on site is apparently proposed, mainly digitising current information, and presumably will not be available for some time.
Presently English Heritage has a list of reports on the larger Hfts 1.5 hectares or more, and Hogg's book and maps can still be acquired on Amazon and surfing the web for often vague county information.
It would be helpful if their research extended to embrace the vast numbers of Hfts on the continent as well.
In my opinion the main deficiency is solid reliable archaeology on dates of occupation and particularly abandonment. Presently very limited indeed, except for a few high profile investigations such as Maiden Castle in Dorset and some in Wessex etc.
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