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| Hatty wrote: | | The TV series on church architecture discussing the effect of the Reformation made plain the link between All Hallows Eve and Guy Fawkes. Under Elizabeth, when Catholic worship was outlawed, the presenter said Catholics were forced to pray for souls in purgatory out in the fields. The prayer lasted as long as it took for a pitchfork of hay to burn out. An amazingly explicit image. |
Wild shot ........stealing the Fawkes/fork idea.
"The fifth of November,
As you well remember,
Was gunpowder treason and plot;
And where is the reason
That gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot?"
"When James the First the sceptre swayed,
This hellish powder plot was laid;
They placed the powder down below,
All for Old England's overthrow.
Lucky the man, and happy the day,
That caught Guy Fawkes in the middle of his play!"
"Hark! our bell goes jink, jink, jink;
Pray, madam, pray, sir, give us something to drink;
Pray, madam, pray, sir, if you'll something give,
We'll burn the dog, and not let him live.
We'll burn the dog without his head,
And then you'll say the dog is dead."
"Look here! from Rome The Pope has come,
That fiery serpent dire;
Here's the Pope that we have got,
The old promoter of the plot;
We'll stick a pitchfork in his back,
And throw him in the fire!"
The pitchfork is used to toss the effigy in the fire. So whereas today we build the fire with the Guy on top, in an earlier ceremony you forked the symbolic "Guy" (the mysterious promoter of the plot) into the fire .....hence Guy Fawkes?
OK you were warned wild guess....
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| nemesis8 wrote: | | .....hence Guy Fawkes? |
Have you read the rest of this thread?
But lots of other interesting material here in your post to chew on. I'd never seen this version of the poem!
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Rather worryingly I have.....
I must be losing it.... when I read the poem, i thought that maybe in times gone by pitchforking the pope/mastermind from abroad on to the fire, was the norm.
Hence the effigy became known over time as Guy Fawkes was original.
Apologies
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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The ceremony, like the poem, reeks of paganism overlain with Christian terms, which don't seem to have much in common. For a crazy moment, seeing the guy on television with his pitchfork, I thought he was holding a trident. Rather eerie atmosphere in the darkness, as if he was in an underground cave so he looked disturbingly satanic. But this is presumably what happens when people are forced underground rather than carry out their rites under the watchful gaze of mother church.
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It seems to me more likely that the original(s) "Remember, Remember" were straight anti-Catholic propaganda, with the verses then being amended, as and when it became politically advantageous.
So I would guess it was Christian/anti-catholic with the anti-Guy, rather than anti-pope, and "pagan" bits substituted in over time as it became convenient.
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I think this story is a case of political spin. When asked by James why he did it, he answered "To blow all the Scottish beggars here present back to your mountains".
Less to do with Catholic emancipation than not wanting a Scot on the throne.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Guy Fawkes is nailed I think. He's Jack o' Lent, a scarecrow/straw puppet who was dragged around, abused and then burnt at Shrove Tuesday, the English equivalent of Mardi Gras carnivals. Presumably the Jack o' Lantern of Halloween fulfils the same purpose.
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All the Jack O seem to be gamblers.
Jack O Kent
Jack O trades
Jack and the beanstalk.
All gamblers of one type or another.
Bet Jack O Lent/Lanterns was a gambler....
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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As kids we used to play with jacks, no knuckle-bones being to hand. Not for money sadly.
Is Jack simply a term for Everyman, a Guy?
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Well the way I look at it basically the same...
However
Jack Os appear gamblers
Guy eg Guido and Guy of (Gisbourne) are evil figures
I have a hunch that Guido is built on the Robin Hood legend.
Therefore nothing to do with Jack O stuff.
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Two more foreign evil guys.
Gaius Caesar, the well known Roman pyschopath.
and of course most famous of all...the clincher.
Gaius "Very well. On behalf of the people of the twelve colonies, I surrender."......Baltar.
Case proven.....Evil traitors the lot of them....They can't help it.
Gaius, Guy, Guido, Gaius... Named and shamed..... Case closed.....
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Gaius seems to be the male version of Gaia, the earth mother, which would link Guy Fawkes to Green Man/Jack-in-the-Green/ Green George, etc. According to Behind The Name Guy is derived from Wido meaning 'wood in Ancient German'.
Gaia was a serpent oracle in Greek myth (I think) and the name Wadjet, an Egyptian snake goddess, means 'green' or 'blue-green'. She was the all-seeing protector of the pharaoh, like the hundred-eyed peacock. Wid/vid- prefixes are to do with sight
The Latinised version of Wido would be Sylvester presumably.Unusually for a pope Sylvester I was a dragon-slayer.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Guido = Guide?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Yes, not necessarily a straightforward or reliable guide, depending on whether he's paid his due. Don says snakes hiss in your ear but snakes' tongues are of course forked. [Ellen, the British goddess of crossroads, is also 'elbow', i.e. crooked].
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Hatty wrote: | | Yes, not necessarily a straightforward or reliable guide, depending on whether he's paid his due. Don says snakes hiss in your ear but snakes' tongues are of course forked. [Ellen, the British goddess of crossroads, is also 'elbow', i.e. crooked]. |
Once again....
El-bow
like
Ang-El (henge-El)
Now if elbow is reversed we get, bowel -- ...or bowl?
The intestines of the abdomen, as I understand it, are supported by a musculature that is bowl-shaped. It would seem then that this is what is referenced by the word "bowel" and not the intestines themselves. This bowel shape is a an angle that curves -- like the arch of a bow.
Is a bow-el/el-bow a curve and a henge-el a sharp angle?
Seems strange to me that the el-bow though would be considered curved. I would think it more closely models a sharp angle.
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