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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| I'm pretty sure now that Rom simply means refugee... people forced to roam. |
I don't buy it, Chad. No one is forced to roam. Everyone else would rather they didn't. What refugees ever kept on going? (I have issues with mass migration and nomadism.) How does a whole culture and sense of identity arise from or in a diaspora? (As opposed the [alleged] diaspora of the Jews.)
Contrariwise, the verb "to roam" might well come from the Roma. ("Room" surely attaches to this equation too, but in which position I dunno.)
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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| DPCrisp wrote: | | I don't buy it, Chad. No one is forced to roam. |
You are probably right, in the sense of taking up a wandering, nomadic lifestyle. But I was simply meaning "looking for somewhere new to set up shop".
And if you were the fleeing remnant of a defeated ruling elite, that is exactly what you would have to do.
Bloody hell... just realised!
Roman... Roma... Rmt... remnant.
Wotya reckon ?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| DPCrisp wrote: | | The other creature that gets mentioned in the same breath as Troll, in particular, is Ogre. |
These words have a suspicious form and may be related to the Tsar and Khan roots (zone & kin).
The "tr" of Troll may be a rendering of Tsar. If so, the "oll" ending might be read as a separate entity. What it might mean I have no idea.
Tsar-Oll
(zone - ?? )
Ogre too may be related to my base roots but, if so, it is based on the second word "Khan". G is cognate with K. I've seen what i think is this rendering in the name Genghis Khan. It is certainly present in the words "Generation" and "Genus". These are based on the Khan (kin) form.
Oh-Khan
( ?? - kin)
Now. Isn't it interesting that both words contain the "O" form. To what can it refer? In past experience, it seems often to mean "Of".
Do the words mean "of the zone" or "of the kin"?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Chad wrote: | | The Romans were refugees from Anatolia... The Roma are still roaming and the Rmt were not indigenous to Africa but roamed down the Nile valley from somewhere in Eurasia. |
The same place. The same time. ?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| DPCrisp wrote: | | I suggest these are all the same as the Giants |
Once again....
Gian = Khan
T = Tsar
Giant = Khan-tsar
I realize this tends to reduce so many nouns to almost meaninglessness but that's about what we should expect when deconstructing complex language into its base, original form.
God this is amazing.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| DPCrisp wrote: | | Ogre = "oaker"? |
I was about to go there next.
Oak = O'Khan.
If I'm right, Ogre and Oak are, at their basest level, the same word. That word means, potentially, "of the kin".
Problem is, once you get here, it kinda destroys our ability to make connections between more complex forms: You can't tell when a word derives from its base constituents and when it derives from a related form, and it's base constituents tell us very little about the word's original application.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| DPCrisp wrote: | | I don't buy it, Chad. No one is forced to roam. Everyone else would rather they didn't. |
They didn't keep roaming. One group invaded Italy and took over. Another invaded Egypt and took over.
Did a third invade Europe and became the underclass?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Chad wrote: | | Roman... Roma... Rmt... remnant. |
God damn that's hot!
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| The other creature that gets mentioned in the same breath as Troll, in particular, is Ogre... Giants are not necessarily giant, nor Dwarves ncecessarily dwarf. |
An above and below division perhaps. Above ground (giants) and below ground (dwarves)?
| The "tr" of Troll may be a rendering of Tsar. If so, the "oll" ending might be read as a separate entity. |
Hmm. In Spanish 'll' is pronounced ''y" which makes troll Troy, which has underground associations (wooden horse).
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Speaking of ogres, here is another snip from The Book
Probably the name you will take away from this walk is Og. A quick google of 'River Og' will confirm this peculiar name seems to be unique and this naturally leads on to Ogbourne since bourne just means stream but does not account for why there are so many Ogbournes.
'Og' is synonymous with giant in Semitic languages as in the Biblical story of Ogias, another dragon-slayer, so there could be a link between Og and George. In the Odyssey Odysseus is detained for seven years on the island of Ogygia by Calypso, a sea goddess; Hermes the messenger, despatched to order Odysseus' release from Ogygia, found Calypso burning cedar and juniper (both of which contain thujone, a psychoactive chemical).
Ogbourne, like Ogygia, appears to be a place of detention for travellers. Another possible link is with Gog and Magog, the names of two famous mythological giants and, mystifyingly, of a range of chalk hills in Cambridgeshire that happens to run alongside Ermine Street, the ancient north-south road between London and Yorkshire.
The highest of the Gog Hills is 246 feet and the two next highest are both 243 feet, which suggests all three were originally the same height. This 'gigantic' type of construct is a megalithic practice we will meet later. Unless of course you think three hills of exactly the same height can exist side by side in nature. |
At least that's what Hatty says.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| ...A quick google of 'River Og' will confirm this peculiar name seems to be unique and this naturally leads on to Ogbourne since bourne just means stream but does not account for why there are so many Ogbournes. |
I am tempted to read that word as meaning "Born of the kin". Makes a lot of sense to me. O-g-bourne = Of-kin-born.
| 'Og' is synonymous with giant in Semitic languages as in the Biblical story of Ogias, another dragon-slayer, so there could be a link between Og and George. |
I suspect that George = Genghis. Geor = Gen / Ge = Ghi.
Rendered in its base roots George = Khan-khan (Ghengis may have a tsar at the end: Genghis Khan = Khan-khan-tsar Khan.
| Ogbourne, like Ogygia, appears to be a place of detention for travellers. |
Ogbourne = O-khan-bourne = Of-kin-born
Ogygia = O-khan-khan = Of-kin-kin
| Another possible link is with Gog and Magog, the names of two famous mythological giants and, mystifyingly, of a range of chalk hills in Cambridgeshire that happens to run alongside Ermine Street, the ancient north-south road between London and Yorkshire. |
Ok. I can see these now.
Gog = Khan-khan = Kin-kin. (In Britain you might say Ken-ken).
Magog = Ma-khan-khan = Feminine-kin-kin (Ma is a prefix I have identified that appears to mean "feminine").
So there are two hill names. Both are kin-kin (whatever that duplication implies). One name is genderless and the other is feminine.
Are these hills imagined to be the progenitors of the human race?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Chad wrote: | | Roman... Roma... Rmt... remnant. |
Romanov Dynasty.
Of the Roman
Of the Remnant?
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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You are probably right, in the sense of taking up a wandering, nomadic lifestyle. But I was simply meaning "looking for somewhere new to set up shop".
And if you were the fleeing remnant of a defeated ruling elite, that is exactly what you would have to do. |
That sounds like the tosh they spout about Anglo-Saxons fleeing the rising sea level, being so poor they (all) bundled over here looking for a living. But that's just when you can't afford to mount a military campaign.
Whoever did the invading must have been enjoying good fortune at the time.
Likewise the Roma can adopt a travelling lifestyle when times are good enough to accoutre themselves and go somewhere they know they can make money.
What happened to the Anglo-Saxon elite when the Normans invaded? They didn't go home and they didn't go a-raiding. They were just absorbed into the upper-but-not-top echelons of society innit?
I don't believe a word they say about the Vandals either because a) they were supposedly peaceful peasant famers who reinvented themselves, wholesale, as mounted warriors and then as fishermen/sailors; and b) whatever was recorded about the Vandals is reckoned to have referred to a whole tribe, a full-depth society.
What we know of people when times are hard is that, though many will go to town looking for work -- only before times get too hard, perhaps -- they will stay there and eat their own children rather than form-up for a mass migration. Belorussian villages were still there for the Nazis to burn down half a dozen times. The Biafrans and Ethiopians stayed where the TV cameras found them.
You only look for somewhere new to set up shop when the setting-up-shop-somewhere-new business is good.
Roman... Roma... Rmt... remnant.
Wotya reckon ? |
I reckon maybe main as in 'remain' probably means hand, i.e. that what remains is what hangs on {picture white knuckles wrapped around the door frame}: the bit that is not ousted with the rest. But then, some words also mean their opposite.
| G is cognate with K... Giant = Khan-tsar |
But G also equals Y/I, in Greek and Turkish, too. This is the kind of G in Gaia/Gigantes/Giants, I believe. (I'm sure Gaia also takes a form something like Iaia, but I can't find it right now: though agia/ayia as in Agia Napa means 'holy'.)
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| In Spanish 'll' is pronounced "y" which makes troll Troy, which has underground associations (wooden horse). |
Even in llama = flame?
Interesting to see LL = FL outside of Welsh/English.
Not sure how the wooden horse is especially undergroundy, but the other mispronunciation of LL is CL, making Troll "trock/troch/trokh"... as in troglodyte, cave-dweller? {Hermit?}
The Troglodytes were supposed to be from Ethiopia, but the famous underground dwellings are in Cappadocia/Anatolia. As with Egypt, is ancient geography too screwed to make any sense of?
Trogle is Greek for hole. Dunnarf sound like "through clay" with an Irish accent.
Troic or Trojan is troikos in Greek, after Tros the mythical founder of Troy. And trogon/trogein* means to gnaw, to eat through. Sounds like Ogres again. Gnaw even looks like Ogre if I squint. Then there's Ogham/Ogam/Ogum/Oghum invented by Ogma.
* "Through-gone, gone through"? Have we done Tros/Troy = Truth/True? We seem to have quite the little nexus of trees/oaks, doors, Druids, going through to find the truth... helped along by gnawing at some psychoactive tree bark perhaps!
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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Is it only Jack's beanstalk-Giant that has fabulous wealth, by the way, or is it a general characteristic of Ogres/Giants?
And what's the connection between this and Hades/Pluto being "the wealthy one", with all the riches of the world, or whatever it was?
And why would anyone be thought of as living-n-working underground? The same as people being turned to stone, I suppose. (Heros waiting underground to be recalled... knights making noises in their tombs...)
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