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Matters Arising (The History of Britain Revealed)
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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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Mick Harper wrote:
Aubrey Burl has died. He was the only archaeologists who ever had a kind word for me -- he got sent a review copy of THOBR and quite liked it. If you read this https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jun/12/aubrey-burl-obituary you will see exactly what made him one of us rather than one of them.


Looks like the kind of publishers and reviewers he mixed with reinforces that. Yale University Press, New York Review of Books, Christian Science Monitor. But being reviewed in Nature seems a bit unnatural. Posh professional archaeos probably turned their nose up at his origins as well.

In the early 1980s, what was by then Hull College of Higher Education (and is now part of the University of Lincoln) closed Burl’s department and made him a redundancy payment.

Ah, Hull College in Queen's Gardens, I remember it well. But mostly for the local courtesans who used to rest there, sunbathing topless, between appointments.

Mick Harper wrote:
Also, getting a full page obit in the Guardian, without even being a telly-archaeologist, shows all hope should not be lost.

Now we know what to get you for Christmas.
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jshorr
I'd like to make a shelf of books that would feel at home in a mad scientist's laboratory. Books concerned with what most would consider fringe science, but that take themselves quite seriously. Any suggestions? Since I only have one shelf to allocate, I'm looking for the best of the best. I other words, books that a relatively intelligent mind might read and almost be convinced that it could be possible...

I'd quite like a list like that myself, and somebody came up with one

pomonomo2003
Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life, Richard J. Herrnstein (A very contentious discussion of IQ.)
Centuries of Darkness: A Challenge to the Chronology of Old World Archaeology, Peter James (An argument over Dating Methodology.)
Catastrophism: Asteroids, Comets, and Other Dynamic Events in Earth History, Richard Huggett (When I was young, scientific gradualism / uniformitarianism were both the 'common sense' and the academic positions. Now this is no longer the case. This book explains why.)
Fingerprints Of The Gods: The Evidence of Earth's Lost Civilization, Graham Hancock (Most definitely Fringe! But in the light of the points made by the above book, perhaps a little less so...)
The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, John D. Barrow (Anthropomorphized Physics.)
The origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind, Julian Jaynes (Interesting, but disputed, discussion of the ancient mind and how our subjective sense of self first arose.)
Small Is Beautiful: Economics As If People Mattered, E. F. Schumacher (Economic heresy.)
The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our Future, Riane Eisler (Feminist Anthropology.)
The Meme Machine, Susan Blackmore (Are cultural Memes really analogous to biological Genes?)
The Interpretation of Dreams, Sigmund Freud (When I was young, everyone genuflected before Saint Sigmund. Now that is all changed.)
Hamlet's Mill: An Essay Investigating the Origins of Human Knowledge And Its Transmission Through Myth, Giorgio De Santillana (Highly speculative discussion of ancient myth cum astronomy. What did the ancients know - and when/where/how did they know it?)
The Mayan Factor: Path Beyond Technology, Jose Arguelles (New Age speculation.)
The Deep Hot Biosphere, Thomas Gold (Hydrocarbons do not originate from decayed life. Rather, according to our author, they are natural and may be where life itself originated.) where life itself originated.)
Race And Human Evolution: A Fatal Attraction, Milford Wolpoff (A defense of multi-regionalist evolution that argues against any racial interpretations of same.)
Atlantis: The Antediluvian World, Ignatius Donnelly (One of the most famous fringe books.)
SAHARASIA: The 4000 BCE Origins of Child Abuse, Sex-Repression, Warfare and Social Violence, In the Deserts of the Old World, James DeMeo (Very fringe anthropological speculation on the origin of violence. A ton of data made it especially interesting.)
Presence of the Past, Rupert Sheldrake (Modern neo-'Lamarckian' attempt to defend the notion that culturally learned behaviors can somehow be biologically transmitted. He names the mechanism that does so a 'morphic' field. I suspect it will turn out that the new discipline of epigenetics will eventually explain all, or most of, the anomalies that our author builds his case on.)

I was furious

TLCrawford
The Mass Psychology of Fascism I have not read it yet, and I might not disagree with the premise which, as I understand it, is that if everybody had more sex there would be fewer wars.

Still furious

Crypto-Willobie
The secret history of the English language by M.J. Harper The author is serious as only a true believer can be -- he argues that English (more or less as it is now) is the ur-language, that Old English and Middle English never existed and are the inventions of professors, and that Latin, French, German and I don't remember what-all other languages derive from English. Needless to say the author is an Englishman...

Slightly mollified

jshorr
I know that my description was lacking... I guess I'm not sure how to describe what I'm looking for. That said (and hopefully this will help), a few of those mentioned above hit the nail right on the head. Namely:
The secret history of the English Language
Fingerprints of the gods
Atlantis: The Antediluvian World

In somebody's Big Three. That will have to do. https://www.librarything.com/topic/142620
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Mick Harper
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It's nice to be cherished

9781840468359 - The History of Britain Revealed: The ...
The History of Britain Revealed: The Shocking Truth About the English Language by Harper, M. J.. Icon Books Ltd, 2007. Paperback. Good. Disclaimer:A copy that has been read, but remains in clean condition. All pages are intact, and the cover is intact. The spine may show signs of wear. Pages can include limited notes and highlighting, and the copy can include previous owner inscriptions.
https://www.biblio.com/9781840468359 - Rank 90 - this is relevant | irrelevant
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N R Scott


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Are you guys aware of a book titled Romance Did Not Begin in Rome by Carme Jiménez Huertas? It also states that the romance languages don't descend from Latin. I only came across it about 20 minutes ago when this livestream popped up in my subscriptions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKAFbeszfaE

For context, the bald guy is a YouTube language expert whose thing is that he speaks Latin. They tend to be quite mainstream, and from what I've watched so far they just completely dismiss the idea. Also the bald guy is affiliated with a YouTube channel called Ecolinguist where they get different language speakers together to see how mutually intelligible they are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqxgY6c6mqs
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Mick Harper
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By coincidence Hatty sent me something about Gerald Capon who is making Youtubes about how English is not Anglo-Saxon. He's a bit fruitcake and believes too much in expert assurances but his heart's in the right place. I'll check out yours if you check out mine.
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Mick Harper
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Both YouTubes are too long to sit through right now but Ms Huertas seems to have pinched the whole idea from me (or discovered it on her ownio). Here's the conclusion of a review from an academic journal
----------------------------

John M. Ryan
Rocky Mountain Review of Language and Literature
Rocky Mountain Modern Language Association
Volume 74, Number 1, Spring 2020
pp. 70-72

The book's conclusion, in the form of an unnumbered final chapter, poses the overarching question as to origin of the Romance languages and proceeds to explain that they come from no one place in particular. Rather, it suggests that they were already in existence at the time of Roman conquest and that they definitively did not arise from Latin, but probably from some combination of Oscan, Umbrian, and Sabellic languages.

The author adds that the case of Rumanian as an outlier language serves as strong additional evidence against the idea of a Latin origin, asserting that modern Rumanian is spoken throughout the entirety of Rumania despite the fact that the Romans only occupied a fourth of this region.

According to Jiménez Huertas, this lends credence to the notion that Latin was not a mother tongue at all for the Romance languages but rather a sibling. The author calls for additional research into the language spoken by the Iberian substrate in order to have a better idea of the true origins of Ibero Romance. She suggests that current evidence from its writing system of two sibilants, consonant lenition, dual rhotic sounds, and vowel distribution similar to Ibero Romance varieties make it a promising... [couldn't see any more]
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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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According to David Howlett, the author of "The English origins of Old French literature " :

Dramatic differences between Latin texts written before and after the settlement of the Normans in England imply that the conquerors inherited from the conquered a tradition of Anglo-Latin composition. They also derived from a 500-year-old tradition of Old English literature the idea and the formal, generic, and thematic models of Old French literature. The earliest examples of nearly every genre of Old French verse and prose were composed in the Anglo-Norman dialect or written by continental authors working in England or preserved in English manuscripts. These, with the Insular heroes and stories of Brendan, Havelock, Horn, Arthur and Tristan, suggest that for the first century of its existence most French literature was English in origin and execution.
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Boreades


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Similarly, in "Language Made Visible: The Invention of French in England After the Norman Conquest" by David Georgi,

The English origins of French literature remain something of an open secret, backed by impressive evidence, but known only to a relatively small audience. In 1992, Ian Short lamented that "standard histories of medieval French literature persist in ignoring the fact that French Literature begins, to all intents and purposes, in 12th century Anglo-Norman England". Many years later, this fact is still not universally recognised, even among Anglo-Norman specialists. A recent book devoted entirely to post-conquest England remarks "in the twelfth century England seems to have been a key region for the production of French writing, in some ways ahead of French-speaking areas on the continent." As late as 2005, the team of eminent scholars who prepared the chapter on "Vernacular Literary Consciousness" in the Middle Ages volume of the Cambridge History of Literary Criticism, called the development of French literature in England "curiously precocious" and don't seem to know what to make of it.
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N R Scott


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Mick Harper wrote:
By coincidence Hatty sent me something about Gerald Capon ..

I watched his videos, they were quite interesting. I wouldn't mind hearing more about the Frisian links. Shame he seems to have moved on to cookery videos now.

I also watched an interview with Carme Jiménez Huertas. I thought she was quite impressive.
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Mick Harper
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You speak Catalan?
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Duncan71


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I understand Catalan at a basic level but you can get by without knowing it in Barcelona (With the possible exception of interacting with street florists who all seem to speak Catalan and nothing else.)

If you go to Carme's YouTube channel you'll see that her videos are all in Castellano (Spanish to you folks).

Her accent is quite easy to understand for those of you who understand Spanish at an intermediate level. However, there is one interview with English subtitles that covers her views reasonably well:

We do not come from Latin / Romance Did Not Begin in Rome
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Duncan71


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All apologies. Here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IUl4HljK1o
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N R Scott


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What a coincidence, that was the exact video I watched ..I could've chosen any of course.
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Mick Harper
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I have watched the whole one hour interview. Although she waves Yves Cortez's book around she doesn't concede she got it from him, just as he doesn't concede he got it from me (we have corresponded cautiously). I am inclined to believe them both -- their arguments are not a patch on those advanced in THOBR. Still, I've got published priority by about ten years (unpublished, thirty years). For what that's worth.
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Mick Harper
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My Google Reminder Service sent me this from 2009 http://www.antimoon.com/forum/t14212-45.htm

THOBR gets a good puff halfway down the first page but I am otherwise absent. The discussion itself is not very illuminating except to show how little anything has moved on since all the same stuff could be written in 2021.
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