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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| DPCrisp wrote: |
b) a wagon or cart
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: |
Your invention now looks something like a Sledge/Slide with wheels.
Is it a "wagon" or is it a "cart"............? |
To classify your thinking is not difficult.
Let's recollect:
ALL transport of people and 'weights' of course develops from the sledge/slide
You have already mentally imagined something like a heavy object, a lever, an "A" frame, with some "Runners"..
By adding a single wheel to the front of your A frame (your sledge/slide) you have a "Wheel barrow"
By discarding your first wheel to the front of your A frame, and adding two wheels to the side, and then "attaching" a beast of burden (horse power) to the front, of the A frame, you have a "Cart," "Car," "Chariot" or "Carriage."
By extending the rear of the A Frame to add two further wheels to the back you have a "Wagon."
You have invented and classified various types of transport.
But........your Car has only two wheels.......
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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On Wagons and Wheels
| DPCrisp wrote: | | "That's interesting," I said to myself, "since I reckon that wain, wagon, way, wake... are all the same word....." |
Difficult to argue with that.
| DPCrisp wrote: | | and Viking = waking |
Maybe...Norway/Norvegr....Northwaking?
Let's take a look, at the problem from an orthodox perspective......
| orthodoxy wrote: |
The root wegh-, to convey, especially by wheeled vehicle," is found in virtually every branch of Indo-European, including now Anatolian. The root, as well as other widely represented roots such as aks- and nobh-, attests to the presence of the wheel -- and vehicles using it -- at the time Proto-Indo-European was spoken. [Watkins, p. 96] |
So you get.........
| orthodoxy wrote: |
WAGON from Middle Dutch wagen, waghen, from Proto-Germanic *wagnaz (cf. Old English wagen, Modern English wain, Old Saxon and Old High German wagan, Old Norse vagn, Old Frisian wein, German Wagen), from PIE *woghnos, from *wegh- "to carry, to move" (cf. Sanskrit vahanam "vessel, ship," Greek okhos, Latin vehiculum, Old Church Slavonic vozu "carriage, chariot," Russian povozka, Lithuanian vazis "a small sledge," Old Irish fen, Welsh gwain "carriage, cart;" |
So orthodoxy says The wagon/wain/gwain are all wheel/wegh words.
But where does that leave Car/Cart/Chariot/Carriage?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: |
So orthodoxy says The wagon/wain/gwain are all wheel/wegh words.
But where does that leave Car/Cart/Chariot/Carriage? |
| Dusty in Memphis Sang wrote: |
Round like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending on beginning
On an ever-spinning reel
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CR words crop (hey!) up everywhere.
They are often transport words like Car/Cart/Chariot/Carriage
They are often Circle words.......
| Dan Crisp wrote: |
An example (of predictive success): I was thinking about Cancer/crab/karkinos and found that the kraken, usually depicted as octopus-or-squid-like, is described as part crab. OK, I thought, if there are kark- and krak- words associated with crabs, then I bet there are karak- words not too far away. First into my hear was coracle, a carapace-shaped boat: not too much of a stretch of the imagination when you consider Cancer has been somewhat variable, but always associated with the sea. Currach/curragh/corrack and carrack are boats. Caracole is a spiral shell. Korax/coracoid is to do with ravens/crows: perhaps the beak is likened to the claw. (But, kara means black and Cancer/Karkinos "was often considered the 'Dark Sign', quaintly described as black and without eyes".) Carapace is of "unknown origin". Carceral/incarceration/carcer means prison: a reference to pincer-like shackles, I expect.
Ignoring the vowels as irrelevant, we're looking at krk and circle could well be the hub of all these associations.
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Aha......we're looking at krk and circle could well be the hub of all these associations.
Lets add in Coracle/Currach/Curragh/Corrack and Carrack to our list of transport words.......Car/Cart/Chariot/Carriage.
There is however a problem. Coracle/Currach/Curragh/Corrack and Carrack are boats.
Car/Cart/Chariot/Carriage are landed vehicles (extra marks if you completed the ride and noted vehicle is itself a "wegh"/wheel word).
No problem..... you have it all worked out ....it is of course
'Lupine Ecstasis' ........
Have a safe journey........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsXoMS9-xxg
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Pete Jones
In: Virginia
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| DPCrisp wrote: | Re: The Plough
pluvial: of or pertaining to rain, from Fr. pluvial, from L. pluvialis "pertaining to rain," from (aqua) pluvia "rain (water)," from fem. of pluvius "rainy," from plovere "to rain," from PIE base *pleu- "to flow, to swim" (cf. Skt. plavate "navigates, swims;" Gk. plynein "to wash," plein "to navigate;" O.E. flowan "to flow").
flow: O.E. flowan (past tense fleow, pp. flowen), from P.Gmc. *flo- (cf. Du. vloeien "to flow," O.N. floa "to deluge," O.H.G. flouwen "to rinse, wash"), probably from PIE *pleu- "flow, float" (cf. Skt. plavate "navigates, swims," plavayati "overflows;" Armenian helum"I pour;" Gk. plyno "I wash," pleo "swim, go by sea;" L. pluere "to rain;" O.C.S. plovo "to flow, navigate;" Lith. pilu "to pour out," plauti "rinse").
Compare
Plough/plow, for which Etymonline doesn't actually offer any meaning: O.E. plog, ploh "plow, plowland (a measure of land)," possibly from Scand. (cf. O.N. plogr "plow"), from P.Gmc. *plogo- (cf. O.Fris. ploch, M.L.G. ploch, M.Du. ploech, O.H.G. pfluog). O.C.S. plugu, Lith. plugas "plow" are Germanic loan-words, as is probably L. plovus, plovum "plow," a word said by Pliny to be of Rhaetian origin.
(Another V to be taken as U.) So now we can see what plough means. And it's still the same as wain.
Ploughs and flowing water... I wonder whether the plough was first used for irrigation. |
Peleg, in Hebrew/Old Testament---or PLG, given the lack of vowels in Hebrew--means two things: "division," and "canal or channel" (i.e., waterway). PLG>PLouGh.
Peleg was Noah's grandson and was named that because "in his day, the earth was divided," per KJV.
I was once trying Biblical fundamentalism/literalism on for size (it fit either too loose or a bit too tight...can't decide), and because the Flood was described as involving TWO sources of water--namely, rain and the "fountains of the great deep" opening up--I equated PLG with Noah's flood and the Expanding Earth Theory of S.W. Carey.
In my version of Carey's EET, I imagined that mid-ocean ridges cracked open, expanding the sea floor, and spewing out subterranean water--, which would conceptually be "a division through which water flowed")
This angle would of course require a major time-crunch for the lifespan of the current-diameter earth, and would also require the flood not to be mainly a mythical retelling of astronomy (which I currently semi-believe)
Another semi-local PLG word is Greek's pelagos ("open sea")
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Pete Jones
In: Virginia
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| DPCrisp wrote: |
An example (of predictive success): I was thinking about Cancer/crab/karkinos and found that the kraken, usually depicted as octopus-or-squid-like, is described as part crab. OK, I thought, if there are kark- and krak- words associated with crabs, then I bet there are karak- words not too far away. First into my hear was coracle, a carapace-shaped boat: not too much of a stretch of the imagination when you consider Cancer has been somewhat variable, but always associated with the sea. Currach/curragh/corrack and carrack are boats. Caracole is a spiral shell. Korax/coracoid is to do with ravens/crows: perhaps the beak is likened to the claw. (But, kara means black and Cancer/Karkinos "was often considered the 'Dark Sign', quaintly described as black and without eyes".) Carapace is of "unknown origin". Carceral/incarceration/carcer means prison: a reference to pincer-like shackles, I expect.
Ignoring the vowels as irrelevant, we're looking at krk and circle could well be the hub of all these associations.
There is an element of speculation here, but not so much that it could be rejected out of hand by an appeal to the authorities who have the same modus operandi. |
Alternative name for the kraken is "the horv", said to be cognate with "harrow" (to plow).
Per Wiki (and a philologist named Finnur Johnson), the kraken and the horv are called what they are because of some ancient usage of a tree stump and its gnarly roots as boat anchors. The kraken looked like a gnarly root, and gnarly roots were also used as harrows/plows, and therefore kraken (cognate with KRAKI = Hook, crook) and horv were the names the monster was given. I'm dubious, because:
The kraken is also the sea monster that sucks sailors on boats into the underworld, something that a whirlpool also does.
The underworld connection is interesting because of other gods/beasts associated with the sea (primordial sea or ocean, in myth)...The primordial ocean is constantly sucking things down to their watery deaths.
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Pete Jones
In: Virginia
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Personally, I think an octopus looks more octo-legged than octo-footed. It's a head with legs and the legs hook (kraki) onto you and pull you down.
The legs are also very much like snakes, says I. And the octopus is, in appearance, all head, but with snake-y tentacles.
A Gorgon is also a head with snake-y tentacles. GORGON and KRAKEN. Simply flip the R and the first vowel in each (metathesis, say the pros) and you have identical words.
Gorgons were the daughters of the sea monster Ceto, too, as well as Phorcys, the primordial sea god.
One more connection: dangerous fluids...
Says Wiki: | According to Euripides' Ion, Athena gave two drops of blood from the Gorgon she slew for her aegis to Erichthonius, one of which "wards off diseases and nourishes life", while the other "kills, as it is poison from the Gorgon serpents". |
Gorgon blood might or might not kill you. The kraken has a dangerous fluid as well, octopus ink
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Pete Jones
In: Virginia
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| DPCrisp wrote: |
(But, kara means black and Cancer/Karkinos "was often considered the 'Dark Sign', quaintly described as black and without eyes".) |
I think that there's so much to what you're saying here. I differ slightly because I think the R is the variable that comes and goes, similar to how the Boston USA accent turns "bar" into "bah."
So karkinos turns to kakinos, in my interpretation. Or kraken turns to kaken. Notice too that hook and crook differ only in their R (if you take all H's to be more like the glottal stop, similar to hebrew's CH, where we get both Hannukah and Channukah transliterations).
R's are very much like an aspect of the vowel itself, just like L's are. You can "park" or "pahk" depending on your accent. "walk" and "talk" certainly treat the L as simply an aspect of the vowel.
Why I think this involves two reasons:
1. The god of darkness in Egypt was Kuk, with kkw meaning "darkness" (the "acacia" tree is said to derive from this kkw word because it provides good shade..."acacia" being equivalent to CC or KK, if you remove the vowels.
2. Kuk rules the sunrise and is the "personification of the primeval river", while his female counterpart, Kauket, rules the sunset (takes the sun on a barge into the underworld each night?) Kauket has no tentacles like the Kraken, but she does carry the sun-barge into the underworld, whereas the kraken takes boats underwater (and of course down to hell/underworld, if you've been a bad Christian norsemen?)
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Pete Jones
In: Virginia
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| DPCrisp wrote: |
Carapace is of "unknown origin". Carceral/incarceration/carcer means prison: a reference to pincer-like shackles, I expect. |
More interesting stuff. If you remove the vowels from carapace, you get CRPC. If P and B are just the voiceless and voiced bilabial sound, they are essentially identical. CRPC = CRBC. Carapace looks like it is simply cognate with crab. The other name for the kraken, like you mentioned, is krabbe (per Wiki).
| Ignoring the vowels as irrelevant, we're looking at krk and circle could well be the hub of all these associations. |
krk and kuklops/cyclops (mentioned earlier in the thread somehwere) lose the R. Perhaps relevant.
| There is an element of speculation here, but not so much that it could be rejected out of hand by an appeal to the authorities who have the same modus operandi. |
Here's a speculation about the sea-monster>underworld>plow connections. When Jesus was crucified on the tree (Cosmic Tree?), he descended into the underworld to perform what the Catholics call the Harrowing of Hades. This literally identical to The Plowing of the Underworld. He came out again, just like the sun barge rises in the morning with Kuk after Kauket took it down into the underworld.
Naturally, Kuk and Kauket sound like the morning and evening star (both Venus), and Christ is killed due to the influence (ultimately, given the cosmic scope of the Fall) by Lucifer, the morning star.
I'll shut up for awhile, probably
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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It's not my job to welcome new people to the AEL. So I won't. A vetting delegation will visit you in the normal way. Virginia, Arizona... why don't people say where they're really from?
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Pete Jones
In: Virginia
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I assumed that my hamlet of "Lovettsville, Virginia" would be meaningless to people, so I went with just Virginia. Tell the vetting delegation that I'm about 15 miles from Harper's Ferry, West Virginia, where you can now take your kids to buy cotton candy and souvenirs where John Brown was hanged
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Country roads, take him home.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Pete Jones wrote: | Alternative name for the kraken is "the horv", said to be cognate with "harrow" (to plow).
Per Wiki (and a philologist named Finnur Johnson), the kraken and the horv are called what they are because of some ancient usage of a tree stump and its gnarly roots as boat anchors. The kraken looked like a gnarly root, and gnarly roots were also used as harrows/plows, and therefore kraken (cognate with KRAKI = Hook, crook) and horv were the names the monster was given. I'm dubious, because:
The kraken is also the sea monster that sucks sailors on boats into the underworld, something that a whirlpool also does.
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Tales about underwater monsters have presumably always been attached to seafaring from time immemorial though the Kraken seems a relatively modern variant, first appearing in the Prose Edda, one of the poems in a seventeenth-century Icelandic collection named Codex Regius.
| The codex was discovered in 1643, when it came into the possession of Brynjólfur Sveinsson, then Bishop of Skálholt in Iceland, who in 1662 sent it as a gift to King Frederick III of Denmark; hence the name |
The oldest version of Prose Edda is said to be in Codex Wormianus (named for its owner, Ole Worm)
A manuscript of Snorri’s Edda written in the mid-14th century. ... Ole Worm owned the manuscript after 1628, and this is why it is now called Codex Wormianus.
Ole Worm was professor in medicine at the University of Copenhagen, and also helped establish the scientific study of Nordic antiquities and runes. |
Unfortunately, dating the Codex Wormianus could be tricky because Ole doused the manuscript in urine according to the University of Copenhagen’s website:
| “Unlike most Icelandic parchment manuscripts, the leaves in the Codex Wormianus are strikingly pale. The explanation is that Worm had his Icelandic assistant wash them in old urine, or so Worm says in a letter to [his friend, historian Stephan] Stephanius, who had asked him how he could make his dark brown manuscript of Grettis saga more legible.” The website of The National and University Library of Iceland has more info on this: “Sveinn Jónsson (1603-87) cleaned the manuscript with urine, with the result that the chapter headings and many marginalia and initials vanished or became illegible.” … |
As an aside it'd be interesting to know if urine, like weak tea, has an ageing effect on parchment
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I'm on it, Hatty. Blind trial: first weak tea, then urine. Where the hell am I going to find some Icelandic urine?
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Pete Jones
In: Virginia
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Urination is clearly the 14th century equivalent of a one-star review.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | I'm on it, Hatty. Blind trial: first weak tea, then urine. Where the hell am I going to find some Icelandic urine? |
A clinical trial by Mick Harper.
We have now discovered how Micturition got its name.
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