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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Wassat then?
It's a country, or at any rate an Autonomous Republic of the Russian Federation.
Whassit got to do with Applied Epistemology?
It holds a world record.
Don't tell us, it's the most godforsaken place on earth.
Probably, but that's not a world record in any objective sense. Its capital is the furthest point of land from an ocean.
Whyzzit in the Politics section?
Being an Autonomous Republic of the Russian Federation should be enough but when I was trying to find out how it ended up in Russia I had some problems... and you know what that means.
Mullarkey?
When I got to something called Oxford Public International Law (put out by the OUP) I sort of found out...
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| From 1207 to 1368 Tuva was part of the Mongol Empire. After its collapse the local rulers dominated until being conquered by Altyn-Khans’ of Mongolia at the beginning of the 17th century. |
Sounds like two hundred and fifty years of independence but it's hard to tell.
| The Russian Tsar’s people arrived to Tuva in 1616 and the Altyn-Khan agreed on Russian vassalship in 1635. |
That's usually fatal. But what about the other Big Dog?
| In 1715 China presented its claims on Tuva and in 1726 the Emperor affirmed his suzerainty over [Tuva] |
That's pretty weird. When was China in a position to claim anything, Tuva-wise? To whom is China 'presenting' its claims? Why, later on, does China feel the need to 'affirm' them?
| The region’s frontiers were delimited by the Treaty of Peace, Boundaries etc between China and Russia of 27 October 1727. |
This is totally off the wall. They make a treaty, they delimit the boundaries, they don't say who got Tuva.
| In 1756 [Tuva] formed the object of Chinese annexation. |
It sounds like China didn't know either.
| Tuva de facto had the status of a sub-suzerainty sui generis with Outer Mongolian princes serving as intermediaries of China’s Emperor in persona. During the Chinese Qing Dynasty, Tuva was part of the province of Mongolia. |
Since the Qing reigned from 1644 to 1911 this technically means the Russians only ruled the joint for nine years from 1635 to 1644. Fairly tenuous, one would have thought. But perhaps the Russians were taking a different view...
| The influx of the Russian colonists started after the conclusion of the Additional Treaty of Commerce, Navigation and Limits between China and Russia (‘Beijing Treaty’ of 14 November 1860). |
It seems not. You don't conclude treaties with countries that are claiming to speak for your own territory. But there Oxford (and Wiki) seems to leave things until the end of the Qing (and, for a bit, China itself).
| One part of Tuvan nobles proclaimed the independence of their region as the Republic of the Tannu-Tuva Nation (Tangdy Tyva Ulus Respublika) although the majority of Tuvan noyons was inclined to seek a union with Mongolia. |
So it was a choice between going it alone and going in with Mongolia. No mention of Russia. But what's this?
| When Mongolia declared itself independent from China in December 1911 in reaction to the Chinese revolution, a third faction of the Tuvan ruling class favoured a Russian protectorate over the region. |
They must have been thinking of the great days of 1635-44. But we know what the Soviet commies were like. Give them an inch...
| This political turmoil gave Russia the opportunity to officially establish on 18 April 1914 its protection (pokrovitel’stvo) over the region, henceforth named Uryankhayskiï kray as an administrative unit of Russian Siberia. |
Except of course this was still Tsarist Russia. Soon, a Tsarist Russia fighting for its life in Europe. But still having time for this
| In 1915 a tripartite agreement was concluded between China, Russia, and Mongolia (Agreement between China, Mongolia and Russia relative to Outer Mongolia), which in regard of the Urianghai question, repeated the content of the notes accompanying the Sino-Russian Declaration of 5 November 1913 (Declaration relative to Outer Mongolia between China and Russia), ie the ‘territory of autonomous Outer Mongolia comprises the regions which were under the jurisdiction of […] the Tartar-General (jiangjun) at Uliassutai […]’. Hence Urianghai/Tuva remained legally under Chinese sway by an inserted intermediate link called ‘outer Mongolian autonomy’. |
But as soon as the Tsars were toppled, and the Kerensky Republic was in control, what did they do?
| In June 1917 a Russo-Urianghai Regional Congress was convened which decided as follows: ‘The Tannu-Uryankhi of the five hoshuu … are under the protection of the Russian State. In internal affairs they are governing themselves independently, but controversial issues are settled by the Russian government. The supreme civil authority in the Uryankhay Region belongs to Russia’. |
Hardly had the ink dried when Russia's flirtation with democracy came to an end and now it's the Commie bastards...
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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As we know, Marxist revolutionaries are not in favour of the people deciding their destiny
| On 13 August 1921 the Tannu-Tuva People’s Republic (‘TPR’) was proclaimed in Khem-Beldyr by a Constituent Assembly comprising of 62 Tuvans, 17 Russians, 3 Mongols, and 1 Korean. |
So, guys...
| A first constitution was adopted unanimously |
Sounds like the sixty-two Tuvans, the seventeen Russians, the three Mongols and the Korean may have been unanimously hand-picked.
| On 23 September 1921, Moscow recognized Tuva as an independent State. |
Now that is a surprise.
| The Constituent Assembly of Tuva accepted the reality that Russia constituted a Russian Soviet Autonomous Colony under the constitution of Soviet Russia and directly subordinated to the latter. |
Now that is a surp... no, it isn't.
| In 1932 a new agreement transformed the ‘Colony’ into ‘Committees of Soviet Citizens’. |
They probably didn't know they were a colony so they may not have known they now weren't.
| However, the Committees’ competences were limited to ‘cultural and instructional work’ among Russian residents. |
Eh?
| The Russian colonists were obliged to abide by Tuvan law. |
I should think so too.
| In 1941 they were granted Tuvan citizenship. |
I should think so too.
| By decree of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (‘RSFSR’) issued on 13 October 1944, Tuva was annexed without consulting the Tuvan native population. |
One wonders why they bothered. We'll wrap it up tomorrow. Or tomorrow or tomorrow.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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| In 1932 a new agreement transformed the ‘Colony’ into ‘Committees of Soviet Citizens’. |
They probably didn't know they were a colony so they may not have known they now weren't.
| However, the Committees’ competences were limited to ‘cultural and instructional work’ among Russian residents. |
Eh?
| The Russian colonists were obliged to abide by Tuvan law. |
I should think so too.
| In 1941 they were granted Tuvan citizenship. |
I should think so too.
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For some reason, this somehow reminds me of the relationship of the Scottish "parliament" to the UK Parliament in London.
Except it's unkind to call Scotland a colony.
Except the SNP is very keen on ‘cultural and instructional work’ among Scottish residents.
Except I still can't get a Scottish passport.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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You should acquire a Palestinian passport. Apparently you can live anywhere with one of these, no questions asked. You are not, however, allowed to return to Palestine.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Tuva was given the status of an Autonomous Region (Oblast) within the RSFSR structures. Seventeen years later, on 10 October 1961, Tuva was elevated to the status of Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (‘ASSR’). |
These changes of nomenclature are usually of little relevance though it should be noted--because it had great significance when the Soviet Union started breaking up in 1991--that Tuva had one priceless attribute, a boundary with the outside world. And therefore, however distantly, the potentiality of being elevated to a full Soviet Socialist Republic. All of which gained their full independence subsequently.
| Already during the early 1940s when Tuva was still nominally independent, there were from time to time disputes concerning the boundary lines between Tuva and Mongolia. |
Mongolia itself was having problems over whether it was in or out of the Russian embrace.
| The USSR Foreign Ministry often acted as ‘mediator’ in these Tuva-Mongolia boundary disputes. When Tuva was annexed in 1944, the boundary line of the 1932 agreement became the provisional border between the USSR and the Soviet-Mongol negotiations to finalise the boundary line’s course began in November 1957. |
Took their time about it. But it was all complicated by China itself becoming (a) a 'westernised' republic (b) a satrapy of warlords (c) half-occupied by Japan (d) Russia and Japan going to war three times along the China/Russia border and (e) China itself becoming communist in 1949. The net result was Mongolia being split into Inner Mongolia (part of China) and Outer Mongolia (the 'independent' state of Mongolia).
| Mongolia (supported by China) demanded that the border line be restored to its late 19th century location—that is, that the USSR should cede ca. 16,000 km2 to the MPR (Cession). In March 1958 a mere 2,000 km2, ie one eighth of the disputed region, was ceded to Mongolia but due to Moscow’s insistence this decision was kept secret for twenty years. |
You couldn't make it up. Though they were. Don't worry, there's a lot more to come.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| The Tannu Ola range boundary line between the USSR and the Mongolian People's Republic was finally confirmed by a Soviet-Mongol Boundary Treaty signed in Moscow on 19 October 1976. |
I think we can put this one firmly in the category of 'unequal treaties'. But, one supposes, anything is better than nothing. It's just a question of pegging out the actual border in those wild parts, right?
| The western (Tuvan) part of the Russia-Mongolia boundary line runs from the Tavan Bogd mountain in the west to Asgatyn Davaa (pass), the junction point of the Mongolian Zavhan and Hövsgöl provinces with Tuva. The joint demarcation of the sector from Asgatyn Davaa to marker 332 was completed in 1959–60 (see also Demarcation Line). The last undefined remaining part underwent a gradual demarcation process which ended in 1979. |
What could go wrong?
| Renewed tension along the Tuva-abutting section of the Russian-Mongol border led to violent incidents in the 1990s: there were fights over disputed pastures between Tuvan and Mongol shepherds, occasionally with the capture of hostages and the use of firearms. The frontier area now is under tight supervision by both sides’ frontier guards. |
Good luck with that. But that's down to Moscow and Ulan Bator. How is Tuva itself getting along?
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | You should acquire a Palestinian passport. Apparently you can live anywhere with one of these, no questions asked. You are not, however, allowed to return to Palestine. |
The similarity with Scotland continues. I'm not allowed to return there either. Something to do with the emotional trauma M'Lady endured while forced to live there as a English child.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Keep trying, Borry. Please.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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I had a Scottish boyfriend who'd lived in Tuva and was a practising shaman. Tuvan shamanism had reportedly been forced underground and survived what he/they perceived as cultural genocide under the USSR, thanks to older practitioners, but whether it was a reclaiming of an authentic tradition or a samizdat version I wasn't able to say.
It may be as a Scotsman (who had a copy of the Treaty of Arbroath on his wall) he experienced a genuine emotional affinity with Tuvans and believed in the efficacy of shamanism, which he assured me is about healing. Shamanic ritual seemed therapeutic for him anyway.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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Grant
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"I had a Scottish boyfriend who'd lived in Tuva and was a practising Shaman" is one of those sentences which has never been written before in the history of English or any other language
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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We must start a new competition
| I had a [nationality] [gender]friend who'd lived in [place] and was a practising [belief, hobby etc] |
But here's the twist. There are prizes for dullness as well as exoticity. No farm animals, please.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Gorbachev’s perestroika and glasnost reforms reached Tuva at the end of the 1980s and social movements quickly called for the restoration of independence and secession from Russia. |
We know, but they didn't know, that all the full Soviet Socialist Republics succeeded in this aim, all non-SSR's failed.
| In 1990 the Tuvan Popular Front (‘TPF’) was convoked (under the name of the Democratic Intermovement) and due to its campaigning efforts, the last Soviet Supreme Council elections brought Tuvans to all three leading posts in the Republic. |
These demonstrations of local sentiment happened everywhere but were subject to the 'SSR, yes/non-SSR, no' rule. Not just in the Russian SSR but in Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan. (Ukraine is pending.)
| Having only nine representatives in the 130-member Supreme Council but being supported by ‘yurtas on streets’, the TPF succeeded in declaring Tuva’s sovereignty on 11 December 1990. |
I think the word 'succeeded' might be premature...
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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| Mick Harper wrote: |
We must start a new competition
| I had a [nationality] [gender]friend who'd lived in [place] and was a practising [belief, hobby etc] |
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OK, here's my first entry for the competition:
I had a {German girl friend} who'd lived in a {Schloss} and was a practising {Countess}.
Her GGG-great-grandfather was active as a diplomat for the Electorate of Hanover. Among other things, he helped his employer secure the British throne as George I of Great Britain. While in London from 1720 until 1732, he lived at 10 Downing Street. NALOPKT No.10 used to be the German Embassy.
German girl friend lived much more modestly as a Catering Manager for Lufthansa. I would tease her by saying Lusthansa (a German rock band). She was once-upon-a-time a skiing holiday date for the Prince formerly known as Charles. But further progress of that relationship was halted by concern about the public being reminded of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and where the current holders of the Royal Franchise originally came from.
Any similarities between German girl friend and the current Lady Boreades are entirely coincidental.
Next please.
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