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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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No problem seeing the 'Skambha' images.
| - He discovered over 5,000 manuscripts, many of which were previously unknown to the Western world. |
This could be a problem. A nicely rounded, large yet slightly vague number ('over'?) of unprovenanced manuscripts is not in the same category as a hoard, they were presumably from a variety of findspots.
Where did the 'previously unknown' manuscripts come from? Manuscripts tend to be bought by Westerners from dealers or found in monastic libraries or lining someone's sock drawer. What happened to the collection? Is it still intact or was it dispersed, 'lost' or sold to private collectors and/or museums?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| A nicely rounded, large yet slightly vague number |
A good point. It is possible to gather together a great many authentic but not very significant artefacts and salt the collection with a small number of outright, but very marketable, fakes.
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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On Fuhrer....Wikipedia says this (emphasis added):
Later, Führer carried out very successful excavations at the Kankali Tila site of Mathura between 1889 and 1891 which improved understanding of the history of Jainism and gained him a reputation "as the most successful of the professional excavators".
Still, Führer's reports continued to be the result of extensive plagiarization, taking especially from the work of his superior Georg Bühler at that time, although this is not clear-cut and may only be the RESULT OF INTENSIVE COLLABORATION BETWEEN THE TWO. |
Got that? It looks like you could flip the story and say "Buhler's work was similar to Fuhrers, but that might have been due to intense collaboration."
Does Buhler read anything Fuhrer writes? Does he not care about being plagiarized? Does intensive collaboration mean that Buhler owes as much to Fuhrer as vice versa? I don't know any of the answers.
Then Wiki adds:
| Führer's reports are also noted for being particularly vague and lacking details. |
That seems about right for someone who didn't want someone to check up on his claims. But if his reports are vague, and if he was Buhler's man on the ground, then how did Buhler treat Fuhrer's vague reports? As gospel? For how long?
In short, why did the Father of Sanskrit Studies not notice these apparently massive failings in his star pupil, employee, and collaborator?
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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| Hatty wrote: | | No problem seeing the 'Skambha' images. |
Thanks, and to Boreades also for confirming. It's just my laptop, for whatever reason.
Regarding where the finds were, um, found, it seems to be in caves. Dry caves, you can rest assured, because otherwise nothing written on palm bark and birch bark could possibly survive for two thousand years.
Which makes me wonder what is the single oldest manuscript that uses Sanskrit. You're going to LOVE the answer.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I hesitate to guess but I've spent a long time wondering, though not much time researching, what is the world's oldest manuscript, period. Orthodoxy says 'whatever's needed' and goes back at least to Early Christian/late Classical times.
It has the decency to rely on copies for earlier than that. I say in Rev Hist that any manuscript before 1000 AD must be presumed a fake based simply on how long vegetable products last. So when you ask
| what is the single oldest manuscript that uses Sanskrit |
you will need two categories:
1. Oldest manuscript claimed by academics and
2. Oldest manuscript proved by carbon dating.
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | I hesitate to guess but I've spent a long time wondering, though not much time researching, what is the world's oldest manuscript, period. |
This is not exact the answer you are looking for but interesting nonetheless...
Diamond Sutra, aka 'Vajra Cutter Perfection of Wisdom S?tra' or 'The Perfection of Wisdom Text that Cuts Like a Thunderbolt'
It is the oldest DATED, PRINTED manuscript (allegedly), from 868 AD. Of course, it was dated by its colophon, which is proof of nothing other than that printers and forgers can produce colophons.
The Spitzer Manuscript, dated to 80-230 AD
Wikipedia says:
| The oldest surviving philosophical manuscript in Sanskrit, and possibly the oldest discovered Sanskritic manuscript of any type related to Hinduism and Buddhism |
It was found in a cave, in fragments, and was pieced together by Albert Grunwedel, who died in a mental hospital after becoming delusional in later life. He could still read and write, mind you, and still thought himself just super effective as an Indologist. But his ideas went a little fruitcake and he was locked up.
The Spitzer Manuscript was carbon dated:
| The calibrated age by Carbon-14 technique is 130 CE (80–230 CE). According to Indologist Eli Franco, palaeographical features suggest a date closer to 200–230 CE. | |
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | what is the world's oldest manuscript, period |
A papyrus:
Currently, the oldest surviving manuscript in the world is the Diary of Merer (also known as the Papyrus Jarf), which dates to approximately 2560–2550 BCE.
Content: These are logbooks written by Merer, a middle-ranking official who led a crew transporting limestone for the construction of the Great Pyramid of Giza.
Material: It is written on papyrus, the oldest known writing support used for manuscripts.
Discovery: Found in 2013 in the ancient harbor of Wadi al-Jarf on the Red Sea coast of Egypt. |
Double world record? Oldest manuscript happens to be about the most impressive piece of surviving ancient architecture?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Diamond Sutra, aka 'Vajra Cutter Perfection of Wisdom S?tra' or 'The Perfection of Wisdom Text that Cuts Like a Thunderbolt'
It is the oldest DATED, PRINTED manuscript (allegedly), from 868 AD. Of course, it was dated by its colophon, which is proof of nothing other than that printers and forgers can produce colophons. |
I assume by 'printed' it is meant 'using Chinese wooden blocks', not Gutenberg moveable type. It is not though a manuscript.
| The Spitzer Manuscript, dated to 80-230 AD Wikipedia says: The oldest surviving philosophical manuscript in Sanskrit, and possibly the oldest discovered Sanskritic manuscript of any type related to Hinduism and Buddhism |
Isn't that an unusually large spread?
| It was found in a cave, in fragments |
So we are in Dead Sea Scrolls territory.
| and was pieced together by Albert Grunwedel, who died in a mental hospital after becoming delusional in later life. He could still read and write, mind you, and still thought himself just super effective as an Indologist. But his ideas went a little fruitcake and he was locked up. |
Perhaps he stumbled on the truth. That'll get you locked up every time.
| The Spitzer Manuscript was carbon dated: The calibrated age by Carbon-14 technique is 130 CE (80–230 CE). According to Indologist Eli Franco, palaeographical features suggest a date closer to 200–230 CE. |
When somebody opts for one end of a wide spread, the impression of a quart being crammed into a pint pot is impossible to ignore.
what is the world's oldest manuscript, period
A papyrus: Currently, the oldest surviving manuscript in the world is the Diary of Merer (also known as the Papyrus Jarf), which dates to approximately 2560–2550 BCE. |
I don't know if it's still true but early tourists would speak of ancient papyri fragments lying about in such profusion, they were regarded more as litter than historical record.
| Content: These are logbooks written by Merer, a middle-ranking official who led a crew transporting limestone for the construction of the Great Pyramid of Giza. Material: It is written on papyrus, the oldest known writing support used for manuscripts. Discovery: Found in 2013 in the ancient harbor of Wadi al-Jarf on the Red Sea coast of Egypt. Double world record? Oldest manuscript happens to be about the most impressive piece of surviving ancient architecture? |
That is the most scarlet of red flags. I would add 'discovered at the latest possible date' given how long these things take to percolate from ground to learned paper. And maybe a fourth: 'Of all the manuscripts made in all the world the one that lasted longest happened to be just the sort of thing archaeologists pray for.'
I hope the dude wasn't involved in a controversy about whether the stone used for pyramids was quarried locally or imported. How close was the discovery to the world's earliest intercontinental canal?
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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On the Merer Diary papyrus:
The Merer Papyrus was dated using internal textual evidence tied to known historical figures and events, plus Egyptological chronology methods:
Pharaoh reference: The diary repeatedly names the king "Khufu" (also written as Khnum-Khufu), placing it in Khufu’s reign (Fourth Dynasty, Old Kingdom).
Administrative titles and place names: Mentions of known contemporary officials, locations (e.g., Ankh-haf, the Great Pyramid project at Giza), and established Old Kingdom toponymy match the Fourth Dynasty period.
Archaeological context: The papyri were found in a sealed deposit within the ancient site of Wadi al-Jarf, an Old Kingdom harbor complex securely associated with Khufu-era maritime activity.
Paleography and material analysis: Specialists assess handwriting style (hieratic script) and papyrus manufacturing consistent with early Old Kingdom scripts and materials.
Relative chronological fit: The content—transport of Tura limestone to Giza for pyramid construction—fits Khufu’s building program as reconstructed from other archaeological and textual evidence.
Combined, these lines of evidence place the Merer Papyrus to around Khufu’s reign (c. 26th century BCE), within the Fourth Dynasty. |
No carbon dating, I asked?
| No—there’s no published radiocarbon date for the Merer papyri. Dating has relied on the internal textual evidence, archaeological context at Wadi al?Jarf, paleography (hieratic handwriting), and correlation with known Old Kingdom officials and Khufu’s building program |
Even in 2013, they can't spare a papyrus corner to date scientifically
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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What do you mean '2013'? Are you relying on internal textual evidence? I accept that's correct, it's the way they expressed the date in those days, but anyone can just write '2013'.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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This is the kind of thing carbon-dating apologists might use. I'm posting it up because Academia happened to send it to me today due to this
| ... union morphology affects decay followig prunning. Arboricultural and Urban Forestry, 32(2), 74-79. Harper, M. J., McCarthy, M. A., & van der Ree, R. (2005). The abundance of hollow-bearing trees in urban dry scl... |
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The overlooked carbon loss due to decayed wood in urban trees by C. Brack
Decayed wood is a common issue in urban trees that deteriorates tree vitality over time, yet its effect on biomass yield therefore stored carbon has been overlooked. We mapped the occurrence and calculated the extent of decayed wood in standing Ulmus procera , Platanus × acerifolia and Corymbia maculata trees. The main stem of 43 trees was measured every metre from the ground to the top by two skilled arborists. All trees were micro-drilled in two to four axes at three points along the stem (0.3 m, 1.3 m, 2.3 m), and at the tree’s live crown. A total of 300 drilling profiles were assessed for decay. Simple linear regression analysis tested the correlation of decayed wood (cm 2 ) against a vitality index and stem DBH. Decay was more frequent and extensive in U. procera , than P. acerifolia and least in C. maculata . Decay was found to be distributed in three different ways in the three different genera. For U. procera, decay did appear to be distributed as a column from the base to ...
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As you can see, it has no obvious connection to rates of atomic decay in carbon molecules but, since botanists are as distant from atomic physicists as archaeologists are, the potential for a bit of 'more research is needed' jiggery-pokery is rampant.
| 'Science is science, right, pal? You can't argue with it. Deforestation was happening everywhere in the period 1500 - 500 BC.' |
And nor can we. Applied epistemologists are not in the magic circle either so we would be reduced to theoretical vapourings of our own if we wanted to object.
It is however of direct applied epistemological concern that carbon dating is not subject to scrutiny from all sides. Careful ignoral of the subject is certainly rampant. But I have carefully ignored this myself.
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