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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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You are forgetting Comgall (how could you?). Saint Comgall founded the "great monastery at Bangor in Ireland" and may or may not have had a relationship with Columba.*
I would have parsed Com as the same as Colm, which is the same as Columb. So, basically "dove" again. Then there's "gall," which is also bird-related, namely Gallus, Latin for rooster (or perhaps just male bird).
So was St Comgall the big cock-dove of all these other little doves that came after him? Or is this all just silly?
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* However, he also may or may not have been connected to Columbanus:
According to Adamnan's Life of Columba, there was a close connection between Comgall and Columba, though there does not appear to be sufficient authority for stating that Comgall was the disciple of Columba in any strict sense.
Comgall was a friend to future saints Cormac, Brendan, and Canice. It is believed that among the monks trained by Comgall at Bangor, were Columbanus of Luxeuil-les-Bains and Saint Moluag. | |
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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St Patrick's Twelve Disciples
This is from Thomas Fuller's Church History of Britain (published 1655 and so probably the oldest book I've ever been enthralled by) in which he seems to prove beyond doubt that these twelve were fake names (emphasis added):
But, to return to the British church, and the year of our Lord 449: wherein St. Patrick [came to Glastonbury and found] twelve old monks, (successors to those who were first founded there by Joseph of Arimathea,)...
Give we here a list of these twelve monks; withal forewarning the reader that, for all their harsh sound, they are so many saints, lest otherwise he should suspect them, by the ill noise of their names, to be worse creatures: (1.) Brumbam, (2.) Hyregaan, (3.) Brenwall, (4.) Wencreth, (5.) Bantom-meweng, (6.) Adel-wolred, (7.) Lowar, (8.) Wellias, (9.) Breden, (10.) Swelves, (11.) Hinloemius, (12.) Hin.
But know that some of these names, as the third, sixth, and ninth, are PURE, PLAIN SAXON WORDS; which renders the rest suspected. So that whosoever it was that first gave these British monks such Saxon names made more haste than good speed, preceding the true language of that age. | |
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I said to myself, halfway through the list, 'But these are Anglo-Saxon.'
1655 is in the middle of the Prime Propaganda Paradigm Period, when John Milton is writing Beowulf and (maybe) the Anglo-Saxon language is being invented. But perhaps the other side are countering with Irish Papistry because they know Roman Catholicism won't fly even with High Church Cavaliers.
Unless it was back to basics with Joseph Arimathea cutting out all foreign imports by bringing Jesus over to start a truly British Christianity. Did he ever leave, that's what I want to know. In fact--and I'm only running this up a very short flagpole--Jesus may well have been a local lad, only adopted by Joseph the Tinman.
Making our Saviour pure Aryan. Well Zummerzet anyway.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Pete Jones wrote: | You are forgetting Comgall (how could you?). Saint Comgall founded the "great monastery at Bangor in Ireland"
Or is this all just silly?
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The art of AE is to take it seriously.
| I would have parsed Com as the same as Colm, which is the same as Columb. So, basically "dove" again. Then there's "gall," which is also bird-related, namely Gallus |
Makes sense Comgall is a pair.
So Co(l)m/Gall function as St Peter and St Paul.
The Apostles' lives/deaths are faked by Romans, eg there is no evidence that St Peter and St Paul were martyred during Nero's reign and persecution of 64-67 AD. These deaths functon to show that Rome is an important Christian site. There is no evidence that Peter and Paul actually visited Rome.
| When Columbanus, Gall and their companions left Ireland for mainland Europe, they took with them learning and the written word. Their effect on the historical record was significant as the books were painstakingly reproduced on vellum by monks across Europe |
This is the function of fictional Apostles, they provide a fake origin for important Christian sites.
In the case of Gall/Gallus, for several decades after his death Gallus' hermit cell remained, the cell was then according to legend (no archaeology) turned into the Abbey of St. Gall.
St. Paul's cell in Rome is traditionally associated with Mamertine Prison.........
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Don't forget that all the best fakers have 'a spell in prison' as part of their standard bio. Don't forget we still haven't figured out why this is so important.
Afterthought: What about a Count of Monte Cristo-style swapping of Peter and Paul?
After-afterthought: Like they did with Jesus and Barabbas.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Don't forget that all the best fakers have 'a spell in prison' as part of their standard bio. |
Pete Jones to add 'Pete Jones to make a list' to the list.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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It seems to Wiley (apologies Pete, this is getting away from etymology) that Ireland was logically selected by Christians manufacturing scripts as it had not been invaded by Romans (there was considerable demand for scripts, gospel books, from newly appearing Abbeys and Cathedrals on the continent) and the last thing you wanted was counter written evidence from Rome, or anywhere else. They therefore needed a backward area, but without an independent written tradition, for their Apostles to set out from. Ireland was a known source for the vellum.
This explains why the Irish had round towers, they were not allowed abbeys, libraries or scriptorium to produce scripts etc but were allowed round watch towers with a sole function of watching cattle. (Or maybe not?)
I quite like the idea....
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Don't forget that all the best fakers have 'a spell in prison' as part of their standard bio. Don't forget we still haven't figured out why this is so important. |
It provides a plausible explanation for the lack of eye-witnesses and/or contemporary records, should anyone ask. Prison equates to solitary confinement, a throwback to (similarly uncorroborated) hermit cells 'in the disert' and scribes copying manuscripts in scriptoria/ monastic cells that have never been located. Absence of provenance didn't seem to trouble anyone too much before the mid 20th century.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Absence of provenance didn't seem to trouble anyone too much after the mid 20th century.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Colum Cille, or St Columba, the first monastic leader on Iona, set off from Ireland along with the 12 Apostles, in a coracle. Wiley wonders how long this trip would actually take, as from a design standpoint coracles have to be the the slowest boat possible.
Wiley would hazard a guess at about 600 years. Sets off 563 AD.......
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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There are quicker ways
| The Megalithic Empire wrote: | | ...St Patrick, who in Cornwall is known as Petroc or Perran or Piran, the variation in names cannot disguise they all refer to rock. The legend of Piran, or Perran, claims that in Ireland he was chained to a millstone and thrown into the raging sea like one of Patrick’s snakes but as soon as he rolled off the cliff the sea grew calm and he floated on the millstone to Perranzabuloe on the Cornish coast, the site of a St Piran’s church now buried in sand near Perran beach. |
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Mick wrote: | | St Patrick, who in Cornwall is known as Petroc or Perran or Piran, the variation in names cannot disguise they all refer to rock |
| Matthew wrote: | When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?â€
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.â€
15 “But what about you?†he asked. “Who do you say I am?â€
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.â€
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.†|
You might say St Peter is patron saint of all of them. Jesus calls Simon "Peter" as Peter = Rock, the foundations on which all churches are built.
| The legend of Piran, or Perran, claims that in Ireland he was chained to a millstone and thrown into the raging sea like one of Patrick’s snakes |
I do wonder about snakes as St Patrick (St Peter) gets attacked by them and throws them into the sea, a myth that is often interpreted as a symbolic representation of St. Patrick driving out paganism and bringing Christianity to Ireland. Yet heyho they feature in the Book of Kells as symbolising Christ's resurrection, we are told that this is because the snake is 'reborn' when it sheds its old skin.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Wiley wrote: | | they feature in the Book of Kells as symbolising Christ's resurrection |
Don't you just hate it when some dude bursts out of the undergrowth knowing more about something you've written a book about? I thought it was just the four gospels, some pix and a bunch of land charters.
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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| Yet heyho they feature in the Book of Kells as symbolising Christ's resurrection, we are told that this is because the snake is 'reborn' when it sheds its old skin. |
Doves equal Holy Spirit, Snakes equal Resurrection, while Fish and Lamb equal Jesus. What else is on this totem pole?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Wiley considers his Aurelius Abmbrosius master mind of the Christian take over of the Roman church (apologies, that should read one of the pillars of the Christian church) with his .........Ambrosius Aurelianus who.......
| was a war leader of the Romano-British who won an important battle against the Anglo-Saxons in the 5th century, according to Gildas. He also appeared independently in the legends of the Britons, beginning with the 9th-century Historia Brittonum. Eventually, he was transformed by Geoffrey of Monmouth into the uncle of King Arthur, the brother of Arthur's father Uther Pendragon, as a ruler who precedes and predeceases them both. He also appears as a young prophet who meets the tyrant Vortigern; in this guise, he was later transformed into the wizard Merlin. |
The wiki page is perhaps the best example of blithely ignroring at the start what every schoolboy or girl would consider to be bloody obvious.
| It has been suggested by historian Alex Woolf that Ambrosius may have been related to the 5th-century Romano-British usurpers Marcus or Gratian – Woolf expresses a preference based on nomenclature for Marcus.[8] Frank D. Reno, an Arthurian scholar, has instead argued that the name "Aurelianus" indicates the descent of Ambrosius from the Illyrian Roman emperor Aurelian (reigned 270–275).[9] Aurelian's military campaigns included the conquest of the Gallic Empire. N. J. Higham suggests that Ambrosius may have been distantly related to imperial families of the late Roman Empire, such as the Theodosian dynasty. Branches of this particular dynasty were known to be active in western Roman provinces like Hispania.[10] |
Examples of overthinking it.
| Mike Ashley instead focuses on the name "Ambrosius" and its possible connection to Saint Ambrosius, a fourth-century Bishop of Milan |
Really? In football this is an open goal. Must score.
| Mike Ashley instead focuses on the name "Ambrosius" and its possible connection to Saint Ambrosius, a fourth-century Bishop of Milan, who also served as consular governor in areas of Roman Italy. The father of the Bishop is sometimes claimed to be a fourth century Praetorian prefect of Gaul named Aurelius Ambrosius, whose areas included Britain, though some modern scholars doubt that Saint Ambrosius was related to this man (instead identifying his father with an official named Uranius mentioned in an extract from the Theodosian Code).[11][12][13] Ashley suggests that Ambrosius Aurelianus was related to the two Aurelii Ambrosii.[7] Tim Venning points out that the name "Aurelianus" could be the result of a Roman adoption. When a boy was adopted into a new gens (clan), he received the family names of his new family but was often additionally called by a cognomen indicating his descent from his original family. The additional cognomen often had the form "-anus". When Gaius Octavius from gens Octavia was adopted by his uncle Gaius Julius Caesar, he was often distinguished from his adoptive father by the addition "Octavianus".[4] In this case, Ambrosius may have been a member of gens Aurelia who was adopted by another gens/family.[4] |
Oh no.
| N. J. Higham, author of a book on Gildas and the literary tropes that he used, has suggested that Gildas may have had considerable motive for drawing attention to Ambrosius. He was not attempting to write a historical biography of the man, according to Higham, but setting him as an example to his contemporaries. It was essential to the philosophy of Gildas that Briton leaders who achieved victory over the barbarians were only able to do so because of divine aid. And only those who had superior Christian virtues were deserving of this aid |
There you go, wasn't difficult. You could get it in the net.
| N. J. Higham suggests that Ambrosius may have been distantly related to imperial families of the late Roman Empire, such as the Theodosian dynasty. |
Wiley gives up.
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