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Pete Jones
In: Virginia
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This is probably just for fun now.
But Caxton's successor at the Printshop of Legend was named Wynkyn de Worde?!? C'mon. The Wikipedia page for this publisher (nudge nudge wink wink) has about six theories for what his actual name was.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Pete Jones wrote: | | And since script means the same as scratch (which is how you engrave), then we can add a mountain of additional words nearly identical to Cax-, all of which mean scratch. |
Kegs are trousers. Except, I see when I checked, they are underpants in the north. Where they can't afford trousers. Either way you put your hands down them to scratch your balls.
| But Caxton's successor at the Printshop of Legend was named Wynkyn de Worde?!? C'mon. |
He features in RevHist:
"Would The Big Three of early English printing be what you are looking for? Incunabula by William Caxton, Wynkyn de Worde, Richard Pynson, that sort of thing?”
“Possibly. If I knew what an incunabula was.” |
| The Wikipedia page for this publisher (nudge nudge wink wink) has about six theories for what his actual name was. |
I wasn't aware they knew it wasn't his real name. I've never seen a reference to the possibility. Do any of them ask why he was given not one y but two and then a foreign-looking (French? Dutch?) surname?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Josephus Flavius was a jobbing historian, not a sprig from either the Flavian emperors or the House of David. |
ASSUMPTION: Josephus is a forgery.
FACT: Josephus does not mention the one person everyone would be most interested in hearing about.
CONCLUSION: That most-interesting personage was invented after the forging of Josephus.
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Pete Jones
In: Virginia
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If the most interesting personage is mentioned in only a single line or two in Josephus, does that mean that the people adding Jesus into the Josephus forgery were:
A) being slyly subtle?
B) underestimating just how interesting that personage would turn out to be?
C) adding in Jesus after the Josephus text had been around long enough for readers to notice if there were suddenly a new chunky section of text that did proper justice to how interesting Jesus had become in the meantime? So the addition had to stay small Option A seems not right because the passage seems clunkily added in. Slyly subtle people would have been slier.
Option B might imply this was all done early in the invention of Christianity, before the stories had been fully baked and made into an orthodoxy
Option C would seem to comply with Edwin Johnson's claim that Islamic Arabs were the original people of the book, then the medieval rabbis started copying their work (and inventing Jewish legend and texts), only followed at the end by the monks copying from the rabbis.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Ishmael wrote: | Josephus Flavius was a jobbing historian, not a sprig from either the Flavian emperors or the House of David.
ASSUMPTION: Josephus is a forgery. |
OK.
| FACT: Josephus does not mention the one person everyone would be most interested in hearing about. |
This is a vexed question. As far as I recall, one of the 'surviving copies' of Josephus' Jewish Antiquities mentions him, the others (other?) don't.
| CONCLUSION: That most-interesting personage was invented after the forging of Josephus. |
Another vexed question. It seems that Josephus material was written for general purposes--presumably in the Renaissance--and the Jesus interpolation added later. When you're in a hall of mirrors, it's difficult to know which mirror is which.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Pete Jones wrote: | | If the most interesting personage is mentioned in only a single line or two in Josephus, does that mean that the people adding Jesus into the Josephus forgery were: A) being slyly subtle? |
I wouldn't buy that. Apart from your use of 'slyly' and 'subtle' being a case of gilding the lily, mentioning him twice in passing would be gilding the lily.
| B) underestimating just how interesting that personage would turn out to be? |
That can't be true. You wouldn't put in someone's name unless he was already phenomenally interesting.
| C) adding in Jesus after the Josephus text had been around long enough for readers to notice if there were suddenly a new chunky section of text that did proper justice to how interesting Jesus had become in the meantime? So the addition had to stay small |
That follows.
| Option A seems not right because the passage seems clunkily added in. Slyly subtle people would have been slier. |
I withdraw my gilding-the-lily charge. I now accuse you of not knowing how to spell slyer.
| Option B might imply this was all done early in the invention of Christianity, before the stories had been fully baked and made into an orthodoxy |
That follows.
| Option C would seem to comply with Edwin Johnson's claim that Islamic Arabs were the original people of the book, then the medieval rabbis started copying their work (and inventing Jewish legend and texts), only followed at the end by the monks copying from the rabbis. |
That's the timeline I've been operating on independently though I hadn't got round to considering the Jewish contribution. It does make pretty good sense provisionally.
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Pete Jones
In: Virginia
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I almost went with "more sly"
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Christians knew about Christ through the Bible, a further source was not needed. Jospehus was a popular read for Christians as The Jewish War was the Jews' divine punishment for the killing of Jesus.
The Franks casket features the relevant scene of the Roman capture of the city Jerusalem in 70 AD under Titus, with the Temple and the fleeing Jewish inhabitants depicted.
Crusader fare.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Christians knew about Christ through the Bible, a further source was not needed. |
That is not what was being argued. Christians' knowledge of Jesus is self-defining and has nothing to do with whether he is mentioned by Josephus or not. Historians are interested in Josephus's mention because, as it happens, that is the only reference to him in any non-Biblical historical source.
| Jospehus was a popular read for Christians as The Jewish War was the Jews' divine punishment for the killing of Jesus. |
I agree that is true but the question is 'Which Christians, when?'
| The Franks casket features the relevant scene of the Roman capture of the city Jerusalem in 70 AD under Titus, with the Temple and the fleeing Jewish inhabitants depicted. |
Insofar as that is true (isn't it an interpretation?) it would be irrelevant except maybe in showing the importance of Catholicism in nineteenth-century France.
I cannot see how this is possible. If Josephus was part of the post-Norman Christological literature, then Jesus would not be given a doubtful one-line entry, would he?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| If Josephus was part of the post-Norman Christological literature, then Jesus would not be given a doubtful one-line entry, would he? |
To know Jesus you consulted the Bible, only the Bible.
Historians, scholars, only became interested in the "historical Jesus" around the 18th century. (Least that is what I thought, maybe I am wrong.)
A history of the Jewish war was of considerable interest to Christians as it featured the divine punishment of the Jews. It's before the 18th Century, but the extensive geography shows a modern. Someone who has either visited, or knows folks that have.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | CONCLUSION: That most-interesting personage was invented after the forging of Josephus. |
Another vexed question. It seems that Josephus material was written for general purposes--presumably in the Renaissance--and the Jesus interpolation added later. When you're in a hall of mirrors, it's difficult to know which mirror is which. |
Date Josephus and you date the invention of Christianity. It must be later than Josephus.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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How does that follow? I would have thought it's the other way round. For myself, I incline to Christianity being invented c 1000 AD and Josephus being invented c 1500 AD.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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A correspondent sent me this https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-europe/codex-gigas-devils-bible-001276 Now we might not be greatly interested in the Codex Gigas but the article has a pic with this caption
| Page of the Codex Gigas which may represent Flavius Josephus. This is the only portrait of a person in the codex. (National Library of Sweden) |
I would have thought the only portrait of Josephus too, but we'd need to know when the connection was made and why (as well as when and why the Codex was created).
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Pete Jones
In: Virginia
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | I wasn't aware they knew it wasn't his real name. I've never seen a reference to the possibility. Do any of them ask why he was given not one y but two and then a foreign-looking (French? Dutch?) surname? |
Wikipedia says he was known and documented as some version of: Wynkyn de Worde
John Wynkyn
William Wynkyn. But "Wynkyn" is allegedly a diminutive nickname for "Wynandus" or "Wynand." For good measure, he was listed 8 times in the sacrist's roll at Westminster Abbey as "Mr Wylkyns."
Wikipedia:
Some authors have therefore concluded that his real name was John Wynkyn (or Wynand) and that "de Worde" was "merely a place name," |
For better measure, he was also known as Jan van Wynkyn, where "van" means "from/of" as well. So, Worde or Wynkyn might be Jan/John/William's ancestral home.
To summarize:
* John/William Wynand became known as the much cuter nickname John/William Wynkyns. He liked it so much he included it on his (alleged) printer's mark.
* But nobody cares much at church, and so in 8 out of 15 mentions in the sacrist's rolls, he is listed as Wylkyns.
* When he gets the honor of being thee most important Wynkyn living in Worde -- or the most important Jan living in Wynkyn -- he gets to be known as Wynkyn de Worde.
* But not Wynand de Worde. He sticks with the diminutive of his surname, surely strange, because
* It would be like calling William Shakespeare "Shaky of Avon."
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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This is the one bit of terra firma in a sea of shifting sands:
| he was listed 8 times in the sacrist's roll at Westminster Abbey as "Mr Wylkyns." |
I'm not sure what a sacrist's roll is but it doesn't sound like something anybody would forge. Anything with a Westminster Abbey badge is likely to be carefully preserved. When a name appears eight times on it that doesn't sound like a fake either. Unless the sacrist's roll has been created for use as a bogus provenance for multiple fakes, but that doesn't seem the case here.
The red flag (as it were) is the appearance of an ordinary surname of an ordinary Englishman. Wilkins. Those of us with long memories will remember 'Butch' Wilkins, sometime captain of the England football team.
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