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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I have found it therapeutic to start the day with some five-finger AE exercises. This sets me up for the two-finger exercises later in the day. With the creative work sandwiched in between. But these routine workouts have a habit of running out, as my Forgeries posts have. Fortunately a new one has come along just in time. An AE-ist of sound mind but fundamentalist background thinks the Book of Job is worth a second look.
So I will go through the King James version of the Book of Job, verse by verse, day by day, to see what can be gleaned. I have no idea whether anything can, but I'll give it my best bash. Those of you with knowledge in this area might wish to help out since my own Job data store consists of "Wasn't he the bloke who kept being assailed by bees?"
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| 1. There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job |
An Uzbecki presumably.
| and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. |
An average sort of Joe.
| 2. And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. |
Average for those times.
| 3. His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east. |
I must protest. You can't just slip in the fact that he's a mix of Alexander the Great and King Croesus just like that. Even making allowances for the Bible not necessarily being literally true, this is sharp practice. I'm warning you, God...
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| 2. And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. |
Seven symbolizes divine completion and wholeness, as seen in the seven days of creation.
Three symbolises unity, harmony.
Perfect is better than average.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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So you're saying boys represent quantitative judgements and girls qualitative ones? I'll wait for more divine guidance before accepting that one. As for perfect being better than average, might I remind you that only God is perfect.
I'm objecting on lit crit grounds. Consider a biography starting
| Joseph was a Georgian with two sons and a daughter. He was an orthodox Marxist and an incorruptible civil servant. Oh, and by the way, the biggest mass murderer in history. | |
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| 4. And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. |
It sounds very convivial but what is meant by 'his day'? As there are seven of them one is tempted to assume 'day of the week'. This turns it into a bit of a nightmare, especially for the three women. Surely they've got their own households to consider. It it's 'elevenses', this daily round would be irksome but do-able.
| 5. And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about |
So maybe more like 'saints name days', once a year each.
| that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all |
I was going to ask where Job was in all this sibling merrymaking but if he's having to make seven (or ten) sacrifices every time one happens we can rule out daily--nobody's rich enough to kill 3,650 animals every year. But why he's doing it at all remains to be seen.
| for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. |
More lit crit, I'm afraid. Where's this come from? Are they plotting against him? What about the daughters? Who in their right minds curses God in their hearts or anywhere else?
| Thus did Job continually. |
So much for the efficacy of burnt sacrifices.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| 6. Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. |
You wait all week, then two come along.
| 7. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? |
I thought He was supposed to be omniscient.
| Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. |
Plenty of latitude there.
| 8. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? |
He comes across like someone from the WWF. Still, it's a promising match-up: Prince of Darkness versus Earth's Finest.
P. S. Is it me, or does the LORD draw a distinction between Himself and God?
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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It's not you. This is one of those sections that forces a head scratch. "Sons of God" is "elohim" in Hebrew, a plural word used for God himself in other parts, like Genesis 1.
"LORD" is "Yahweh".
One suspects the translators had to make some fine distinctions in their minds to force El and Yahweh into the same God bucket here.
(In the bear shit, when "Elohim" is used during the creation event, the Calvinists declare this to be the first hint of the Trinity)
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Yes, but this does not appear to be a naming thing. The LORD would appear to be putting God on a different level to himself (whether above or below is not clear). The LORD does, however, appear to be on guardedly familiar terms with Satan.
'God' is a reality in Job's mind but Job doesn't fear the LORD, he may not even know about the LORD, though ultimately employed by him. The LORD is testing Job's faith in God, not in himself.
The LORD is presenting himself as
* an experimenter
* a judge
* a competitor with Satan and (let us not forget)
* the reporter of these events.
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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My question is, why translate "elohim" as "sons of God" in verse 6, then as plain-ol' God in verse 8? Presumably, because it supported the translators' doctrinal position (whatever that was)
If verse 8 said Job "was one that feareth the sons of God," then the apparent meaning would be different (I think).
Also, the New International Version translates "elohim" as "angels"! This certainly queers the pitch (did I interpret that idiom correctly?)
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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In this translation the 7 boys=day/nights and the 3 girls=watches.
Anyway Satan appears to be substituting chaos where once there was harmony.
This is pretty serious stuff as potentially this is going to end the day/night creation cycle.
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | | In this translation the 7 boys=day/nights and the 3 girls=watches. |
Which translation?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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That is Wiley's understanding of the numerology.
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | | This is pretty serious stuff as potentially this is going to end the day/night creation cycle. |
Ahhh, I see. This is going to become an extra-pregnant comment by the time we reach the end of the book, because there's a definite astronomical catastrophism angle in around chapter 38 or so.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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I reckon, we will be back at the beginning, but wiser, at the end.
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | | I reckon, we will be back at the beginning, but wiser, at the end. |
Or, failing that, maybe we'll be converted. Not Mick, of course. But we of weaker mind.
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