How Fast Do Languages Change? (Linguistics)

[Mick Harper]

We've been given a new task. Render this into English. The first thing to do is to transcribe all these weird letters. Anyone know how to do it? I can't find an English version on the web...I think it's from The Pearl, a poem by the geezer wot did Gawaine and the Green Knight.

[Mick Harper]

I've tracked down a modern "translation" which should help. But remember, PLEASE, we are not interested in literature, we are trying to get a one-to-one rendering of the orginal in modern spelling. [It is The Pearl, Canto XV verse two[

[Mick Harper]

Here's my late-nite stab. Improvements needed.

'Lasse of blysse may non vus bring
Less of bliss may none us bring

þat beren þys perle vpon oure bereste,
That bear this pearl upon our breast

For þay of mote couþe neuer mynge
For they of mote (a speck) couth never manage ie For the uncouth never manage

Of spotle3 perle3 þat beren þe creste.
Of spotless pearls bear the crest

Alþaȝ oure corses in clotteȝ clynge,
Although our corpses in clods cling

And ȝe remen for rauþe wythouten reste,
And there remain for [duh?] without rest

We þurȝoutly hauen cnawyng;
We [something] have knowing

Of on dethe ful oure hope is drest.
Of on death full our hope is addressed

þe Lombe vus glade3, oure care is kest;
The Lamb [something something] our care is cast

He myrþe3 vus alle at vch a mes.
He dunno dunno dunno

Vchone3 blysse is breme and beste,
Each one's bliss is [something] and best

And neuer one3 honour 3et neuer þe les.
And never one's honour set nevertheless

[Ishmael]

Working on it....

[Hatty]

And 3e remen for rauþe wythouten reste,
And we remain for wrath without rest (i.e. because of wrath) (?)
('remen for rauthe' is translated as cry out in derision in 'Morte d'Arthur', it might be better as "we remain racked without rest"?)

We þur3outly hauen cnawyng;
We [something] have knowing
We persistently (stoutly?) have knowing

þe Lombe vus glade3, oure care is kest;
The Lamb gladdens us, our care is cast

He myrþe3 vus alle at vch a mes.
He mirths us all at such a mess (as in officers' mess?), meal might be better

Vchone3 blysse is breme and beste,
Each one's bliss is brimming (brimful?) and best
('breme' means glorious, wondrous, according to dictionary)

[Ishmael]

Less of bliss may none o'us bring
That bear this pearl upon our breast,
For they of mite couth never mind
Of spotless pearls that bore the crest.
Although our corpses in clothing cling,
And wear raiment for rot without rest,
We throughout-ly having knowing;
Of one death full our hope is dressed.
The Lamb o'us gladens, our care is cast;
He mirthing o'us all at church and mass.
Each one's bliss is brim and best,
And never one's honour get never the less.


There! Could be Wordsworth I think. Now I know I've got some of it wrong but it makes a darn sight more sense than that terrible "translation." Who's paying these fellow's salaries???

[Ishmael]

By the way, why does Bede say "the Latin Languages." That's not five then. It's four plus an unknown number (plural) of Latin Languages.

Now what in the world can Bede mean by Latin Languages? There are no Latin Languages (we say). There is only Latin.

What can this mean? Anythng?

And if Irish = Gaelic then that means the Scots Gaels too. So who are the Picts? Seems like the Picts could be your Welshmen.

English = Saxon-German
British = English
Irish = Gaelic (Irish and Scots)
Pictish = Welsh

But what happened to the Cornish?

Latin Languages? Well Latin plus....what? French? Spanish?

The other option is that Bede didn't mention his own language (Anglo Saxon) because he was describing Native languages and he was well aware that Anglo-Saxon was not native to Britain. But then why mention "Latin Languages?"

But the passage really smells funny when Bede claims Latin is "in general use." In what culture anywhere has Latin ever been "in general use?"

[DPCrisp]

That '3', yogh, is used 2 different ways here, but this is part of the confusion/fascination with G and Z. Sometimes it's G/Y/U, sometimes it's Z/S. The first version Google turned up didn't have it at all.

My go:

Lasse of blysse may non vus bryng
Loss of bliss may none us bring
þat beren þys perle vpon oure bereste,
that bear(en) this pearl upon our breast
For þay of mote couþe neuer mynge
For they of mote/moot couth never ming
Of spotle3 perle3 þat beren þe creste.
Of spotless pearls that bear(en) the crest
Alþa3 oure corses in clotte3 clynge,
Although our corses/corpses in clots cling
And 3e remen for rauþe wythouten reste,
And we remain for rath without(en) rest,
We þur3outly hauen cnawyng;
We throughoutly/thoroughly have(n) knowing
Of on dethe ful oure hope is drest.
Of one death full our hope is dressed
þe Lombe vus glade3, oure care is kest;
The Lamb us glads, our care is cast
He myrþe3 vus alle at vch a mes.
He mirths us all at each a mess
Vchone3 blysse is breme and beste,
Each one's bliss is breme/brim and best/beast
And neuer one3 honour 3et neuer þe les.
And never ones honour yet/get never the less.


It's not without ambiguity, but so what?

those of mote couth = those with little knowledge
those of moot couth = the public could(eth)/can
ming = imagine, remember [(Re}mind = (re)ming-ed?]
clots = clods, maybe clothes
we remain for rath without rest = we would sooner/rather go without rest
one death = Christ's death [OK, I put on = one, but looked at the footnotes to see what it meant.]
mess = meal, as in mess hall/tent
breme/brim = brimful, full on; breme = fierce, "origin unknown". The difference seems immaterial.
best/beast = best or beastly/bestial. The difference seems immaterial.
And never one's honour yet/get never the less = no one's honour is diminished. Yet and get are the same anyway (I say).

[DPCrisp]

[Ishmael]

[Mick Harper]

PMB, why don't you join us for a bit here? As you can see we are quite affable in our own surroundings and it would do you good to be in a minority of one instead of in your accustomed comfort zone of defending orthodoxy.

[Mick Harper]

I wish to hell I could discover why these posts on the Time Team thread keep disappearing. This is the second day in a row that I've lost some (some of Harry's have gone too...perhaps the rest of you could check yours). This is almost certainly some kind of technical glitch but my experiences of being branded a troll on other sites makes me faintly paranoid.

[DPCrisp]

[Ishmael]

[Mick Harper]

No, but from the context of some of PMB's replies on the TT thread, it is clear that he is a member here. As you know, the reason we swoop occasionally on other sites is that we need outside exposure to hone up our polemical skills (which in turn generate new ideas...which we can discuss when the TT business is over).

But it would be much better if we could get Defenders of the Faith over here. Our experiences with Duncan for instance, I thought, were incredibly useful. And, I trust you noted, his one-man-bridgehead at the start of the TT thread was equally valuable.

But generally it is, for all the usual reasons, impossible to get two sides to oppose each other amicably. Though I have to say, Ishmael, you are being thunderously and uncharacteristically mild yourself on the TT thread. I am being increasingly forced into the Nasty Policeman role. Which unfortunately I enjoy all too much.