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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Or vice versa? (Or vice versa versa?) |
Folk tales are just as literary as the bible though supposed to be based on oral tradition and also intended for an educated audience (not younger sons, simpletons, commoners). They are often considered to be subversive (celebrating younger sons, simpletons, commoners) but seem pretty conservative in the sense that Good wins against Evil, the latter being associated with traditional 'sins' like vanity, avarice, etc.
It could be that some of the stories' original metaphors were altered to fit a particular, recognisable setting in the way that gods were appropriated and acquired pronounceable names. It'd be wellnigh impossible to produce the earliest sources but there's a depth of seriousness which belies their function as purely entertainment.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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The Babylon exhibition at the British Museum has left me more uninformed than when I entered its hallowed portal.
They had a bit of the Ishtar Gate which must have been a replica as the original is apparently in Berlin (not just the Brits who nick antiquities) and the tiles were suspiciously bright especially the blue background (reminds me that tiles in Spanish are azulejos from the Arabic azul meaning blue) plus a couple of surprisingly well-preserved clay tablets with the most exquisite writing in a deliberately 'old script', to add gravitas perhaps to the content.
The bulk of the exhibits bear testimony to how Babylon has been reflected through the work of painters mainly illustrating myths like Belshazzar's feast (writing on the wall supposed to refer to weighing, i.e. judgement, 'tekel' meaning shekel), the Tower of Babel and the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, one of the Seven Wonders, which Herodotus neglected to mention in his exhaustive travelogue.
The most recent myth already established is Bush taking over Iraq much as Cyrus conquered Babylon and the lamentations over Saddam's building works despoiling the site of ancient monuments, rather logical considering that Saddam is supposed to have modelled himself on his Babylonian forebears.
When and why did Babylon become the stuff of legend?
PS. The 'Whore of Babylon' refers to Rome we were told. Seems like a Romantic invention with Blake's gleeful drawing of an unamused Whore riding a seven-headed creature resembling the famous Babylon 'dragon', a mixture of lion, eagle and serpent, not so different from a griffin and other heraldic beasties.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| reminds me that tiles in Spanish are azulejos from the Arabic azul meaning blue |
The Italian football team are called the Azurri so obviously Ishmael is correct that Carthage equals the Arabs. Though even he will be surprised to hear that they in fact won the Punic Wars.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Aren't the Arabs supposed to have conquered much of Italy during the middle ages?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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They occupied Taranto for a few months. No, wait...I've got it! The Italians conquered Libya in 1912 after the Italo-Ottoman War,. where they learned football from the Ara...no, wait...I've got a better....
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Well I don't know about Libya but the etymology is Arabic:
azure: c.1325, from O.Fr. azur, false separation of Arabic lazaward "lapis lazuli," as though the -l- were the French article l'. The Arabic name is from Pers. lajward, from Lajward, a place in Turkestan, mentioned by Marco Polo, where the stone was collected.
The Azzurri wear 'royal blue', the colour of the crest of the Savoia, the Italian ruling family until 1946. The House of Savoy was based in Chamb�ry on the Leysse river, now on the Lyon-Turin main line, and extended to Turin, its later capital, and into Switzerland to Geneva and as far south as Nice (plus a prime site in London). According to wiki Savoy was chiefly renowned for the quality of its weaponry.
The name is claimed to derive from Latin sapaudia or sabaudia meaning 'land covered in fir trees'; I was rather hoping it would be related to savoir, knowledge. Perhaps the sap of fir trees makes a man sapiens.
The French call their national team Les Bleus.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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As you know, my own etymological system suggested lapis lazuli to mean, "Sky Stone", and I reached that conclusion not realizing the stuff is the richest sky blue you will ever see embodied in rock.
I see though you keep ignoring this.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I shall certainly be ignoring Hatty's laboured reconstruction. Apparently the Wops oughtta be called the Lajwardis. "Come on, you Lajwardis." Yes, it could take off.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| I see though you keep ignoring this. |
No, not at all, it's always at the back of my mind. Just the other day I was discussing the Presili bluestone enigma of Stonehenge with my son, the fact that it was transported over such a distance must be connected with some special 'property'... presumably the colour.
Azure is translated as sky blue'; blue is traditionally the colour of royalty, yes I know it's purple but purple is classified as blue by botanists and who am I to argue. (We've already discussed the significance of blue in Arabic culture as a protective colour for warding off the evil eye).
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Wireloop
In: Detroit
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I was thinking recently about Columbus' discovery of the New World, in particular why he called the first sight of land 'San Salvador'... it seems to me only fitting that the land should be called 'holy saviour' in that the sea is 'chaos' and land is a 'order'. Most of the world creation myths indeed equate the sea with chaos and land with order, and imagine Columbus' joy in 'finding' the land that would bring him peace in a time of distress. Psychologically it was as if he and his crew were miraculously risen from the dead.
Now looking at Columbus' route to the new world, it is obvious that he must have 'docked' at the Azores which was known at the time as the most western piece of land on the face of the earth. In essence the Azores was the end of the 'earth' (land), the last piece of salvation in the midst of the sea. 1000 miles off-shore.
Currently nobody knows what the word Azores actually means.
Here is the bookshelf answer:
| Though it is commonly said that the archipelago is named after the goshawk (A�or in Portuguese), because it was supposed to be a common bird at the time of the discovery, the bird actually never existed on the islands. Some historians indicate the archaic Portuguese word "azures" (the plural of blue) because of the color of the islands when seen from afar. Most, however, insist that the name is derived from birds, pointing to a local subspecies of the buzzard (Buteo buteo), as the animal the first explorers erroneously identified as goshawks |
Gimmeabreak! Yawn....
What did Columbus call the new 'end of the earth' that he discovered?
San Salvador of course. Salvation!
So did Azores mean something akin to Salvation to the captain who originally named it perhaps decades, centuries or even millenia before Columbus?
Sure, why not!
Now ask yourself this, "what nation was Columbus from?"
Portugal, i.e, Spain.
What else do we know of Spain?
It was populated by Jews at least as early as the 2nd century BC. Gee that is long way from home for a Jew, is it not?
Who were the Jews?
Well, as I propose they were of Phoenician/Greek origin. Oh, that explains it, the Jews originally were sailors and that is why they were a long way from home.
Well, why would the Jews stop at Spain?
Why not continue out into the great blue yonder?
They didn't, they kept on sailing.
The earliest mention of the Azores islands is from a Atlas called the Catalan Atlas made in the 14th century, perhaps 1375 AD...over 100 years before Columbus. And as fate would have it, it was drawn by 2 Jewish cartographers...Abraham and Jehuda Cresques.
Now look at the word AZORES and think of the Jews. Which words in Hebrew mean salvation, helper, preserver, etc...
Well there is one huge root word which stands out.
The Word is AZAR and is the word from which we get LAZARUS (EL-AZAR), meaning the Help of God or AZARAH meaning the Help of Jehovah.
Holy Help!
Were the AZORES originally named something akin to LAZARUS, he who rose from the dead with the help of God -- like a sailor at sea who sights land?
San Salvador!
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Hatty wrote: | | When and why did Babylon become the stuff of legend? |
As I understand it, the identification of the archaeological "Babylon" with the city of legend rests upon a single piece of evidence. Is this true?
| The 'Whore of Babylon' refers to Rome we were told. |
Comes from the book of Revelation.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Were the AZORES originally named something akin to LAZARUS, he who rose from the dead with the help of God -- like a sailor at sea who sights land?
No |
Everybody is allowed to make one hundred absurdly enigmatic posts. After that they will get deleted
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Everybody is allowed to make one hundred absurdly enigmatic posts. After that they will get deleted |
I really don't want to present the reasons why the argument is wrong. It requires a book and will eventually get one. At the same time, I'd rather people not pursue wild-gooses without some warning.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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You are perfectly at liberty to continue doing so. But they will be deleted. If you are worried at the poor little preciousnesses going on wild-goose-hunts, you are perfectly at liberty to post dire warnings to them via private messages. Would you mind leaving me out though. I am like Caesar, enigmatic warnings tend not to prevent me attending the Circus Maximus.
PS Or you could change your posting name and then you would have another 100 undeleted enigmatic warnings!
PPS But then people wouldn't take any notice, not knowing it was you. mmm...I'll sleep on it.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| In essence the Azores was the end of the 'earth' (land), the last piece of salvation in the midst of the sea. 1000 miles off-shore. |
This is the traditional view but transatlantic exploration long before Columbus is widely accepted now. The Portuguese for blue is azul just as in Spanish but there must have been an earlier indigenous term for blue before the Moors appeared. It is just as likely that the Azores were named by Arab sailors trading off the North African coast rather than subsequent Portuguese explorers. Jewish cartographers shouldn't be conflated with Jewish sailors (though there's a question mark over Columbus himself).
| Were the AZORES originally named something akin to LAZARUS |
The islands are in fact amongst the highest mountains on earth if measured from their base though this might not be self-evident. There could well be a connection with Ishmael's sky stone if the island peaks are seen as a kind of boundary linking the sea and sky.
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