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Flying Chaucers (Linguistics)
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Donmillion wrote:
So you believe that the Virgin Mary delivered the infant Jesus into a day-care centre? Come on! That's the only meaning "crèche" has in modern English.

Seems more likely that crèche is (shepherd's) crook spelt funny. Both are for taking care of kids.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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There is something very odd about this passage:

She childed her first gotten son, and wrapped him in cloths and put him in a cracche, for there was not place to him in the common stable.


What is odd is that this isn't the bible-story.

The story in the Gospel, as we know it, has the child placed in a "manger" because there was no room at the inn. Here, we have a child placed in something called a "cracche" because there was no room in the stable.

Why is the story different?

Regardless, whatever a cracche is, it shouldn't be something found within a stable -- as there was no room inside the stable for the child, according to this version of the story.

So what is a cracche?

It occurs to me that it might be a place where a person might sleep when no other place is available.

Which reminds me of a word that has popular North American usage in exactly this context: "Crash".

In North America, if you attend a party and stay too late or drink too much (think Dionysus), you don't return to your own bed or sleep in one provided by your host (as these are typically full already). Instead, you "crash" on the sofa. You might in fact ask your host if it is permissible for you to "crash" at his home.

So just as the verb "childed" survives today only in the form of the noun "child", perhaps the noun "crash" survives today only as a verb.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Moses.

Placed in a basket.

Dionysus.

Placed in a basket.

Jesus.

Placed in a cracche.

Is a cracche/crash a basket?
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Ishmael


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A "crash cart" is indeed a kind of portable basket.
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Ishmael


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In fundamental phonetics, ch / sh / st / t are all cognate. Let's look at what happens when we substitute "t" for "cch":

Cracche becomes Crate.

Now what is a crate?

"A large frame box or or basket made of strips of wood..."
-- World Book Dictionary
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Crate

"A kind of basket or hamper of wicker-work"
-- An American Dictionary of the English Language
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Ishmael


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Now I'll go out on a limb where few will choose to follow.

I suspect we are reading here the original story of the birth of Christ. The transformation of the basket into a "manger" is another instance of an error being made when the original English tale was translated -- this time into Greek.

What is the Classic Greek word for basket or crate?

hmmm... kofa.

Nothing there it seems.
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Ishmael


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Well what do you know! Even in modern usage, there is still a type of basket known as a "Crash".

Picture of a "Crash" Basket
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Here's another:

Crash Basket

Now what is the defining characteristic of a Crash basket? It is its mesh construction. It looks like a kind of sieve.

Now what sort of basket is used explicitly as a sieve? A winnowing basket. A winnowing basket used to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Dionysus was specifically placed in a winnowing basket.

Now we know Jesus was too.
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Ishmael


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"Common Stable"

I'm willing to bet the original phrase meant hotel / motel / inn! A common stable was a temporary residence that many people shared "in common".

The original story then went like this (paraphrased):

The Christ child was laid in a winnowing basket because there was no bed available in the inn.

The meaning of common stable was not understood by the scribes tasked with re-writing the tale in Greek. They got it muddled up and penned the story we know, of a baby born in a stable because there was no bed available in the inn.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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"Common Stable"

It's a consciously animal setting isn't it. The use of 'childed' rather than birthed/ brought forth is like saying the cow calved or the mare foaled.

Jesus was born in a (Platonic) cave (cracche = crack?), he was re-birthed by John the Baptist in the river Jordan.

What is the Classic Greek word for basket or crate?

hmmm... kofa.

That's very interesting. Kof in Hebrew means monkey and in Ancient Egypt Thoth, the (moon) god of wisdom, is often monkey-headed.

Crate

"A kind of basket or hamper of wicker-work"

The baby in the basket/casket is a Wicker Man (Guy Fawkes!) who was annually sacrificed to guarantee the well-being of the people?
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Ishmael


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Hatty wrote:
The baby in the basket/casket is a Wicker Man (Guy Fawkes!) who was annually sacrificed to guarantee the well-being of the people?


It comes full circle.

Guy Fawkes.

The son of Dionysus.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Coffer, where objects are kept for safety or offerings are placed, is the same word as coffin according to online etymology: from Gk. kophinos "a basket," of uncertain origin.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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A traditional cratch:



I have crashed in worse places.

(Nice to see a bit of creative thought returning to this thread.)
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nemesis8


In: byrhfunt
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Donmillion wrote:
[[4] She childide hir first goten sone, & wlappede hym in clothis & putte hym in a cracche, for ther was not place to hym in the comun stable.


N8 reckons the whole debate is now mired in nineteenth century assumptions about the meek and humble Jesus, and nativity legends.


She bore the first overcoming son, and wrapped him in cave, (womb) and put him in a crack (err not suitable for minors) for there was no place (for him) in a common stud. (animal)

It just means he was special birth lineage.
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