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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Wiley hasnt really looked at Oxford.
Ortho is something like Anglo-Saxon settlers arrived around the 8th century designated this exact shallow spot as "Oxenaforda" (the ford for oxen). it was a natural ford connecting cattle trails, so to service this crossing point a small Anglo-Saxon village grew up around it which then later became fortified, and eventually Oxford.
Maybe there was many fording points?
Of course ortho has sought the original https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folly_Bridge
Of the little I know, there is very little Saxon stuff within Oxford. Ortho is very excited about anything Saxon.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg4q0l3e5x6o
The official explanation is as you would expect its all under Oxford Castle.
The great majority of archaeology of Oxford Castle is clearly a Norman, large motte and bailey castle, built post conquest by Robert d'Oilly, its claimed the Saxon bit is underneath.
My best guess is that stone for the castle was brought in from Headington quarry, and they used Oxen pulled carts, you need Oxen rather than horses for heavy loads of stone.
Its pretty much all Norman and later.
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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Carrying on "SKANDALON = stumbling block = Jesus" conversation here....
(Mick, this looks long, but it's 300 words)
Some facts:
1. SKAND- words mean "leap, jump, or ascend" in many "Indo-European" languages:
Sanskrit's SKANDA (leap)
Latin's SCANDO (climb)
English's ASCEND itself
2. They also mean the thing in your way, the thing you have to leap over: Greek's SKANDALON (snare or trap)
English's SCANDAL
Yiddish's SHANDA (shame?)
3. STUMBLE (as in Stumbling Block) is related to:
German's STUMM ('keep stumm" (i.e., quiet, mute))
English's STAMMER (to speak haltingly)
Sanskrit's STUMBH and STUBH (to stop, hinder, arrest...also stupefy)
Sanskrit's SKUMBH (to stop, hinder)
Sanskrit's STAMBH (to stop, hinder, arrest....stupefy)
The other thing STAMBH, STUMBH, and STUBH mean is "prop, support". And the STAMBHA is another pronunciation of SKAMBHA, the Cosmic Pillar, the Axis Mundi.
A stumbling block is clearly meant to "stop, hinder, arrest" something. The phrase can't be construed to mean "prop or support" - just the opposite.
Yet in one language (scribal, not-so-ancient, etc?) the same word gives rise to both. Calling Jesus the Axis Mundi is right exactly in line with I'd expect.
Questions:
Did the English translators stumble upon a coinage (i.e., stumbling block) that happened to connect the "God-Man Who Died on the Cosmic Tree/Pillar" with an Indo-European word that literally meant Cosmic Pillar? Is it a coincidence?
Did the Greek writers of the book of Romans coincidentally use SKANDALON (snare or trap) without knowing that SKAND- means "leap" and that the Planet Mars/God of War/"the leaping one" is SKANDA in Sanskrit?
Both the English word and the separate Greek word are etymologically connected with two separate ancient myths, both of which are fundamental (in that they appear all over the world). What gives?
Or is it just pattern recognition run amok?
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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Block: "log, stump, piece" (per Wiktionary)
Tyndale couldn't say "Stumbling stump" I guess. Lucky that English had a synonym for stump.
Meanwhile, a stump is a CUT tree. The Cosmic Pillar collapsed in the myth, while the Cosmic Tree broke in half. Leaving a stump.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Carrying on "SKANDALON = stumbling block = Jesus" conversation here.... (Mick, this looks long, but it's 300 words) Some facts: |
Ooh, I like facts.
1. SKAND- words mean "leap, jump, or ascend" in many "Indo-European" languages:
Sanskrit's SKANDA (leap)
Latin's SCANDO (climb)
English's ASCEND itself |
OK
| 2. They also mean the thing in your way, the thing you have to leap over: Greek's SKANDALON (snare or trap) |
OK
Not OK. You don't leap over a scandal.
| Yiddish's SHANDA (shame?) |
Not OK. You don't leap over shame. Still, one out of three is good. Apart from the one being the word being compared.
3. STUMBLE (as in Stumbling Block) is related to:
German's STUMM ('keep stumm" (i.e., quiet, mute)) |
Can't see the connection myself.
| English's STAMMER (to speak haltingly) |
A clever use of 'halting' does not qualify this one either.
Sanskrit's STUMBH and STUBH (to stop, hinder, arrest...also stupefy)
Sanskrit's SKUMBH (to stop, hinder)
Sanskrit's STAMBH (to stop, hinder, arrest....stupefy) |
Sanskrit has an I-E root word which combines stumbling with stopping. Valuable.
| The other thing STAMBH, STUMBH, and STUBH mean is "prop, support". And the STAMBHA is another pronunciation of SKAMBHA, the Cosmic Pillar, the Axis Mundi. |
A prop or a support or a pillar is clear contrary to what we are seeking.
| A stumbling block is clearly meant to "stop, hinder, arrest" something. The phrase can't be construed to mean "prop or support" - just the opposite. |
Oh, you got there before me.
| Yet in one language (scribal, not-so-ancient, etc?) the same word gives rise to both. Calling Jesus the Axis Mundi is right exactly in line with I'd expect. |
OK
Questions:
Did the English translators stumble upon a coinage (i.e., stumbling block) that happened to connect the "God-Man Who Died on the Cosmic Tree/Pillar" with an Indo-European word that literally meant Cosmic Pillar? Is it a coincidence? |
I wouldn't have thought so. We are now diving into the authenticity of Sanskrit. Though surely too early for 16/17th Century Englishmen.
| Did the Greek writers of the book of Romans coincidentally use SKANDALON (snare or trap) without knowing that SKAND- means "leap" and that the Planet Mars/God of War/"the leaping one" is SKANDA in Sanskrit? |
That's good. I like that.
| Both the English word and the separate Greek word are etymologically connected with two separate ancient myths, both of which are fundamental (in that they appear all over the world). What gives? |
I don't think we have established 'all over the world', have we?
| Or is it just pattern recognition run amok? |
A dangerous question in your line of work.
| Block: "log, stump, piece" (per Wiktionary) Tyndale couldn't say "Stumbling stump" I guess. Lucky that English had a synonym for stump. |
Lucky that the English used stumps to stumble people or animals. I make so bold as to assert they are the only people in the world to do this.
| Meanwhile, a stump is a CUT tree. The Cosmic Pillar collapsed in the myth, while the Cosmic Tree broke in half. Leaving a stump. |
So cutting Jesus down to size would mean people might stumble over him. It makes a sort of sense.
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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| Mick Harper wrote: |
Not OK. You don't leap over a scandal. |
Metaphorically, you might want to.
But if SCANDAL is related to SKANDALON, a snare or trap, then SCANDAL is metaphorically related. People are metaphorically ensnared or made to stumble due to scandals.
If language only operates on sound - and not metaphor - then yes, we are not permitted to link words metaphorically. And the academics are exactly right about their sound "laws."
| Not OK. You don't leap over shame. |
The linguists on Wiktionary are torn over SHANDA. They say it comes from *SKANDU-, which meant "shame, disgrace." Since the asterisk means that they made up that word completely, I feel better thinking that SHANDA (or SCHANDE, in German) is related to SCANDAL. And SCANDAL and "shame" are obviously related, and we don't even need to bring metaphor into it.
Even the linguists are embarrassed that their "laws" require them to make up *SKANDU- instead of just connecting SCANDAL to SHANDA directly:
Sense evolution from "cause of stumbling, that which causes one to sin, stumbling block" to "discredit to reputation, that which brings shame, thing of disgrace" is possibly due to early influence from other similar sounding words for infamy and disgrace (compare Old English SCAND (“ignominity, scandal, disgraceful thing”), Old High German SCANDA (“ignominy, disgrace”), Gothic ?????? (SKANDA, “shame, disgrace”))
That "You don't leap over shame" is funny, but irrelevant. A made up Proto-Germanic word doesn't convince me that the meaning "shame, disgrace" is not just a slightly definitional change from "scandal."
| Can't see the connection myself. |
As you like. This stumble>stumm connection is asserted by Wiktionary-editing linguists. I see a metaphorical connection, but metaphors are in the eye of the beholder.
[re: stumble and stammer]
A clever use of 'halting' does not qualify this one either. |
Really? Merriam-Webster thinks their semantics are pretty close to each other:
STUMBLE
1: to trip in walking or running
2: to walk unsteadily
3: to speak or act in a hesitant or clumsy manner |
STAMMER
1: to make involuntary stops and repetitions when speaking, to stutter |
The definition of "haltingly" is to do things "with sudden stops." I wasnt even trying to be clever.
| Sanskrit has an I-E root word which combines stumbling with stopping. Valuable. |
"Stupefy" is the interesting bit, which is why it was in bold. (You ignored that part.)
I was mainly pointing out that being "Dumb, mute, paralyzed in speech" are ways in which people were deemed to be mentally defective, or "stupid." I should have added that STUBH is also "stupefy, benumb, paralyze" in Sanskrit.
The M and B seem to act curiously. They come and go. We can have stub and stump, which mean the same thing. We can use one of both for the M-sound (thumb, comb, etc)
Since stumbling over words, stammering, "keeping stumm," and being stupefied or in a stupor are all metaphorically related - and essentially identical in their form - we might be piqued.
| I don't think we have established 'all over the world', have we? |
Correct. I assert its truth, but don't expect you to take my word for it.
| A dangerous question in your line of work. |
And how!
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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When someone is struck dumb or stupefied they are also "stumped". Why would that be? Is this a metaphor about the stump of a tree? Or is there a semantic connection back to stumbling over your words, keeping stumm, etc?
The stub of a tree would be its stump. The M in English seems like it can perhaps come and go, too, like in Sanskrit.
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