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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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An article by an essayist called Colin Marshall, 'How the Ancient Romans Travelled Without Maps', caught my eye as he pondered much the same question as TME did, how people managed to find their way across vast distances, in this case the Roman Empire, without maps or at least scaled maps
The surviving maps from the ancient Roman world tend not to take great pains adhering to true geography. Yet as the Roman Empire expanded, laying roads across three continents, more and more Romans engaged in long-distance travel, and for the most part seem to have arrived at their intended destinations.
To do so, they used not maps per se but “itineraries,” which textually listed towns and cities along the way and the distance between them. By the fourth century, “all main Roman roads along with 225 stopping stations were compiled in a document called the Itinerarium Antonini, the Itinerary of Emperor Antonius Pius.” |
https://www.openculture.com/2024/11/how-ancient-romans-traveled-without-maps.html
I’d be more inclined to believe this chap if he could locate an original ‘itinerarium’ to coonfirm the existence of Roman maps aka itineraries.
The earliest extant ‘Itinerarium antonini’ is in the Bodleian (MS Bodl. 391). Its provenance is Benedictine Abbey of St Augustine, Canterbury but the author is said to be a sixth-century archbishop/scholar, Isidore of Seville (c. 560 – 636), aka Isidore the Younger or Isidore Junior because of the earlier history purportedly written by Isidore of Córdoba.
The manuscript has been dated end of the eleventh century, apart from the folio containing the Itinerarium which is
11. (fol. 136v)
Itinerarium Antonini
Added in a late 12th cent. hand. |
Details of the ownership record suggest the manuscript is 13th century, though its acquisition is 16th century, as per the extant copies of the Itinerarium.
https://medieval.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/catalog/manuscript_1422
At least five primary manuscripts exist from which published texts of the Itinerarium are drawn. It has been generally agreed all of them probably derive from the 'Codex Spirensis' which was copied between AD 1427 and 1551. The Codex Spirensis turns out to be a somewhat mysterious document which appeared and then disappeared
| Codex Spirensis, a codex known to have existed in the library of the Chapter of Speyer Cathedral in 1542, but which was lost before 1672 and has not been rediscovered. |
Wiki is vague about the authorship and date of the Antonine Itinerary but insistent on its historical value
Seemingly based on official documents, possibly in part from a survey carried out under Augustus, it describes the roads of the Roman Empire.[1] Owing to the scarcity of other extant records of this type, it is a valuable historical record.[2]
Almost nothing is known of its author or the conditions of its compilation. Numerous manuscripts survive, the eight oldest dating to some point between the 7th to 10th centuries after the onset of the Carolingian Renaissance.[3] Despite the title seeming to ascribe the work to the patronage of the 2nd-century Antoninus Pius, all surviving editions seem to trace to an original towards the end of the reign of Diocletian in the early 4th century.[3] The most likely imperial patron—if the work had one—would have been Caracalla.[1]”
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Itinerarium Burdigalense ("Bordeaux Itinerary"), also known as Itinerarium Hierosolymitanum ("Jerusalem Itinerary"), is the oldest known Christian itinerarium. It was written by the "Pilgrim of Bordeaux", an anonymous pilgrim from the city of Burdigala (now Bordeaux, France) in the Roman province of Gallia Aquitania.[1]
It recounts the writer's journey throughout the Roman Empire to the Holy Land in 333 and 334[2] as he travelled by land through northern Italy and the Danube valley to Constantinople; then through the provinces of Asia and Syria to Jerusalem in the province of Syria-Palaestina; and then back by way of Macedonia, Otranto, Rome, and Milan. |
It gets better
| The Itinerarium survives in four manuscripts, all written between the 8th and 10th centuries. Two give only the Judean portion of the trip, which is fullest in topographical glosses on the sites, in a range of landscape detail missing from the other sections, and Christian legend.[7] |
The knowledge of where pilgrims could see "shrines" was rediscovered by Helena, Mother of Constantine in 326, after the so called first Christian Emperor sent his mum off to find the True Cross and uncover other holy places.
By 333 pilgrims from Bordeaux are following in the great woman's footsteps....using an Itinerary.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Archaeologists have discovered the remains of a person from the 'year 0' while excavating an early ancient Roman settlement in the Netherlands.
The 2,000-year-old grave, which belonged to a soldier named Flaccus, was accompanied by various artifacts, including a bronze bathing tool called a 'strigil,' pottery shards and a set of terra sigillata plates.
The surface of one of these plates was abbreviated with 'FLAC,' a nickname for Flaccus, making him the oldest named individual in the region's history.
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We have found a Roman burial, we have roughly dated it by the style of pottery (most folks call it Samian ware), we have bizarrely assumed that that the name (nickname?) on the pottery belongs to the buried individual rather than the potter.
We have gained a lot of publicity by the use of "year zero" (see what they did)) "Oldest named individual"
This tableware, even if you call it poncy terra siggilata, is as bog standard as Roman soldiers were. It is often found in graves.
Getting annoyed now.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Getting your own name on pottery bespeaks of early inclusion in the process. Unless your name is 'You don't have to be mad to work here but it helps'. (Just trying to cheer you up.)
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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We have found a Roman burial, we have roughly dated it by the style of pottery (most folks call it Samian ware), we have bizarrely assumed that that the name (nickname?) on the pottery belongs to the buried individual rather than the potter.
We have gained a lot of publicity by the use of "year zero" (see what they did)) "Oldest named individual"
This tableware, even if you call it poncy terra siggilata, is as bog standard as Roman soldiers were. It is often found in graves.
Getting annoyed now. |
Steve has glasses and likes books, is he more likely to be a librarian or a shelf stacker?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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The Boys Book of Battles. (River Crossing)
Tricky things rivers. They get in the way of mighty armies. The enemy might take the chance to attack you whilst crossing. As a budding young commander, and future military genius, you will be keen to know what your options actually are. This avoids the embarassment of your followers (cowards) refusing to cross, and you having to engage in long marches or, worse, return home.
Wiley is here to help.
Xerxes- (Hellespont in 480 BC). 7.5/10 Bridge of boats. Good choice, well engineeered, but then spoilt it by taking a full 7 days and nights to cross. Wiley's advice, don't waste time by admiring the handiwork. Crack on once your boat bridge is constructed.
Alexander- (Hellespont in 334 BC), 9.5/10 Ferrying of troops using tiremes. (Granicus 334BC) 10/10 Fording. (Gaugamela in 331 BC) 9/10 boat bridge. Good choices, well executed, nice variety. Notice the use of fording in the heat of battle, needs must, choose your ford wisely. Don't want to be swept away.
Hannibal- (Rhône River 218 BC) 4/10 Rafts for elephants. Poor choice based on the incorrect assumption that elephants don't swim. Neglected to make arrangements for rest of army. Hannibal has been widely admired for his novel use of elephants, crossing mountains and rivers. Wiley disagrees, would have done better to watch these beasts navigate their natural habitat before setting off. Still, we award 4 as they did make it to the other side.
Ceasar (Rhine 55 BC) 7/10 Built an actual Bridge. Not sure why he did this, he appears to have disregarded all the normal options, ie ferrying, boat bridge (pontoon bridge) etc, as beneath the dignity of the Roman empire, so he just executed an engineering miracle in no time at all, at a time of war.
Conclusion: As our future commander, you need to study the former greats when it comes to river crossings.. Wiley recommends the methods of Alexander, less so Hannibal, avoid taking elephants. By all means study the methods of Ceasar, but keep in mind that actual bridge construction is more normal in times of peace.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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And Mick (From An Unreliable History of the Second Punic War)
The reason neither Britain nor the USA produce effective field armies is that, being maritime powers, they rarely get the practice. During their long and successful military careers, they have always tried to limit themselves to campaigns on islands, peninsulas and coastlines — places suited to small armies and big navies.
| They avoid as far as possible traditional military campaigns on continental landmasses that require large armies and small navies. |
When the exigencies of foreign policy do demand the latter, they are chronically nervous about any type of operation that does not occur in the former. One such being opposed crossings of large rivers. English-speaking military men are convinced major rivers are formidable hindrances for the attacking side.
| Any continental general could have told them they are nothing special. |
Rivers are useful for temporary regroupings in defence, they have to be taken into account like any other geographical feature on offence, but should not to be obsessed over for months (even years) in advance and then, when the time comes, be dealt with by a panicky piece of rank adventurism.
By September 1944 the Allies needed to cross the Rhine and decided Arnhem was the place to do it. This seemed a baffling choice because all that lay on the other side of the Rhine at Arnhem was northern Holland, an area of such minor strategic significance the Germans used it to rest up battered units.
‘But,’ argued the Allied strategists, ‘once across the Rhine, we can turn sharp right, surround the Ruhr and on to Berlin. Only the Arnhem bridges stand between us and final victory.’
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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German sit.rep.
Field Marshal Model:
What can you see?
General Ludwig:
Nothing- But they're going to try a river assault
Field Marshal Model:
It will fail
General Ludwig:
Of course- But what do we do if it doesnt?
Who says the Germans never had a sense of humour?
Major General Gunther Blumentritt:
Everyone knows you have never lost a battle.
Field Marshall Gerd von Runstedt:
I'm still young, give me time.
Bridges are such nice things.
Field Marshall Walther Model:
Why do all my generals want to destroy my bridges?
Corporal Hancock had the right attitude. Keep Calm And Carry On Drinking Tea.
Corporal Hancock:
Sir.
Major General Urquhart:
Hancock I've got lunatics laughing at me from the woods. My original plan has been scuppered now that the jeeps haven't arrived. My communications are completely broken down. Do you really believe any of that can be helped by a cup of tea?
Corporal Hancock:
Couldn't hurt, sir.
We just need more Plucky Brits.
Brigadier General Gavin:
I'm sending two companies across the river by boat. I need a man with very special qualities to lead.
Maj. Julian Cook:
Go on, sir.
Brigadier General Gavin:
He's got to be tough enough to do it and he's got to be experienced enough to do it- Plus one more thing. He's got to be dumb enough to do it..- Start getting ready-
Maj. Julian Cook:
Well someone's come up with a real nightmare, a real nightmare
It would have ended better if Sean Connery (Maj. Gen. Urquhart) had shot Dirk Bogarde (Lt .Gen. Browning) after Dirk's utterly facile remark.
Lt. General Frederick "Boy" Browning:
I've just been on to Monty. He's very proud and pleased.
Major General Urquhart:
Pleased?
Lt. General Frederick "Boy" Browning:
Of course. He thinks Market Garden was 90% successful
Major General Urquhart:
But what do you think?
Lt. General Frederick "Boy" Browning:
Well, as you know, I always felt we tried to go a bridge too far.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| "Wenn ich 'Boy' höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!" | |
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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While fully appreciating that AEL inmates might not venture far outside AEL into the wilds of the interweb.
Some other burning questions about Roman History appear in unexpected places.
On MumsNet:
Note: OH means Other Half (as in spouse or partner)
This was such a popular topic it eventually earned its way into the illustrious MumsNet Classics.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I'm married to Mary Beard so in our house the boot is very much on the other foot.
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