Inventing History : forgery: a great British tradition (British History)

[Mick Harper]

It occurred to me, if you wrote Barbara Allen as a song in, say, 1800 and put it out as such -- even if it is set in the past -- would anyone give it the time of day? The tune after all is a traditional one and the lyrics are pretty weird. Probably not. But put it out as something sung by the common people after the traumas of a war and you've got a worldwide smash on your hands.

[Hatty]

[Grant]

Serious question,

There is no definitive reference to Jesus Christ in classical literature. But if most of it has been invented, why not?

[Ishmael]

[Ishmael]

Fomenko argues, in his latest book, that Christianity began in the 12th century and that the Old Testament (or most of it) was written after the New.

There are huge difficulties encountered by this thesis. I believe Fomenko boxes himself into these difficulties by assuming Jesus was an historical character. I have an evolving alternative hypothesis I need to write more of. But it's so nascent as to likely embarrass me.

In my judgement, your observation is completely inconsistent with an origin for Christianity earlier than the 16th century. Moreover; if we can accurately date the forgeries, we can put a bottom on the chronology of Christianity.

[Ishmael]

I recently encountered a female scholar on YouTube (I'll try to track down the video) who argues that Jesus does indeed appear in Josephus. She argues that everyone has been looking in the wrong time period; for Josephus describes a character whose career is a prefect imitation of the Christ of the gospels. That character's name is "The Egyptian." That character appears about 20 years after the Christ of the gospels would have been around.

If she's right, then Josephus incorporates a "historical Jesus" into his history. This does not mean that "The Egyptian" was a real person. It simply means that the writer of Josephus wanted his readers to believe (or knew they already believed) that "The Egyptian" was a historical personage of the period he is purporting to be writing about.

[Ishmael]

If this "The Egyptian" thesis is correct, then it implies that the Chronology of Christ within the standardized timeline, had not yet been settled at the time of his writing (whenever that really was). The latter Gospel writers decided to alter the chronology and place Christ earlier.

Perhaps, in fact, they did that to obscure his relationship to "The Egyptian" of Josephus.

Neither character need be real but each set of stories reflect a different view of the character.

[Ishmael]

Here is the book!

A SHIFT IN TIME

[Ishmael]

What this means is that, if "The Egyptian" is meant to be Christ, then the words of Josephus were written after the Gospel story was being told, but not necessarily after the Gospel Story had been written. It would likely be one of the earliest "classic works" to include the story.

Nail down when Josephus was actually written and you might have a decent clue about when the Jesus religion began.

[Mick Harper]

I'll leave you to pursue that on a different thread. And on a different planet. This one's about British forgeries. If we combine this

[Mick Harper]

It's a funny thing but the tops of inscribed stones can barely get through the year but the stones last for three thousand five hundred years and the inscriptions last for fifteen hundred

[Wile E. Coyote]

The Sheela na gig is a grotesque Fortuna, The Green Man a grotesque Neptune. As christianity became the religion of the empire, they turned the old Roman gods into grotesques. You really need to develop a sense of righteous monotheist Christian superiority when you see these carvings, it's all about knowing there is just one true god who you can put all your faith in.

[Mick Harper]

Can I sum up your theory then, Wiley? (I have to justify my retainer with the Encyclopaedia Britannica.)

1. The Ancients put up images of their Gods
2. The early Christians believed all graven images were sacrilegious so they destroyed them
3. But then put up grotesque versions of them anyway
4. They (the grotesques) survived (the grotesque idols, that is) for the next fifteen hundred years
5. Wiley says the Ancients put up... (and so forth, it's a cycle, as Buddhists say when they get one for their birthday).

[Wile E. Coyote]

Err no.

I am saying that the older state religion, cult of Augustus, and the worship of other Roman gods, was gradually replaced by the newer state religion called Christianity (Christ=Augustus) and the grotesques (grotesques=Old Roman gods).

[Mick Harper]

I didn't spot the bit where I went wrong.