| View previous topic :: View next topic |
Ray
|
|
 |
|
| Is there anything special about 1320, when the Declaration of Arbroath says the Scots came from Scythia? |
I always thought that the Scythians - or saca as their friends the Persians called them - were a Germanic people. Hence the Saxons, or Saca Sunen - Sons of the Saca.
Perhaps they weren't Germanic as such. Perhaps they were what the experts would define as Proto-Europeans.
|
|
 |
|
 |
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
| Perhaps they were what the experts would define as Proto-Europeans. |
Oh, you mean English-speakers. Funnily enough they still speak English to this day!
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
| I have been told by Gaelic speakers on the West coast of Scotland that it can be quite difficult for them to understand a Gaelic speaker from a different settlement/island/valley because of local differences in the language |
This is no use. Every island community makes this claim. Whether it's true or not. Though of course if it were true, poor old Columba would have needed dozens of translators. It's proper Scots Gaelic and proper Irish Gaelic we need info on. And 'proper' rules out Linguists's Tales.
| and I have several times been told that Scots and Welsh Gaelic speakers can't understand a thing the other says. |
This is certainly true but has no bearing either (P vs Q). Though it would be parallelly interesting whether Welsh can speak unto Breton.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Ray
|
|
|
|
I would like a bit more info on the nature of Scotland the Nation. I think most of us living south of the Border tend think of Scotland in the past as something not unlike Afghanistan, say - as a land, that is, that was divided up into a series of territories ruled by warlords. Thanks to Shakespeare's MacBeth, we know Scottish kings ruled fron an early date, but we still think in terms of the tribal wars between eg the Campbells and the MacDonalds.
On reading up a bit on the subject, I've learned that until relatively recently Scotland the Nation only covered part of the landmass. The greater part was occupied by Norwegians, Picts and other non-Scots. It seems that the Scots - whoever they were and wherever they came from - were indeed centred on the area you've highlighted. I've also read that the inhabitants formerly spoke Brythonic. I don't know if you're going to delve into their background, but personally I would like to know more about how they came to rise to such prominence.
Such prominence that, despite the remoteness of their location, they arguably became the first Europeans since the fall of the Roman Empire to acquire the trappings of an advanced civilisation.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
|
|
|
|
| we still think in terms of the tribal wars between eg the Campbells and the MacDonalds. |
Is that not a borders thing... English v. Scottish/Gaelic/something... unrepresentative of the internal order of things?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
|
|
|
|
Had another e-mail notification from the British Academy about a talk on the spread of Gaelic:
Gaelic in medieval Scotland: advent and expansion
Professor Thomas Clancy
University of Glasgow
Wednesday, 4 March 2009
5.30pm - 6.30pm, followed by a drinks reception
The British Academy, 10 Carlton House Terrace,
London, SW1Y 5AH
Free Admittance
Early 7th century records show that the Gaelic language and people were confined to the region of Argyll, yet, by the 12th century, most parts of what is now Scotland (and indeed parts of northern England) either had or had had communities of Gaelic speakers. This vast expansion of the language happened during one of the least well-evidenced times in Scotland's history, and the timing and mechanisms of this expansion have been much theorised and debated. The primary evidence illuminating these processes is that of toponyms, and, as such, place-names form the bedrock of this lecture’s investigation. This lecture will review the evidence for Gaelic's arrival and expansion in the various different regions of Scotland in the Middle Ages, examining in particular a number of different nodes of controversy, where paradigms have been shifting over recent years, including the advent of Gaelic in northern Britain; the dominance of G aelic in the kingdom of Alba; and Gaelic in the south-west, the Western Isles, and the far north. What will emerge is a much more complex, nuanced series of interlocking episodes in Scotland's linguistic history.
About the speaker
Professor Thomas Clancy is Chair of Celtic at the University of Glasgow. His research interests include the development of Christianity in early medieval Scotland, the poetry of early medieval Scotland, medieval Gaelic narrative, especially Christian literature, Scottish place-names and saints’ dedications, medieval Welsh narrative, and the northern Britons. He contributed to the preparation of Celtic Culture: An Encyclopedia (2006).
Please visit our website for full details of our forthcoming events.
Telephone enquiries: 020 7969 5246 / Email: [email protected] | |
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
| Professor Thomas Clancy is Chair of Celtic |
When are they going to learn that putting a fox in charge of the henhouse is not a terribly good idea.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
|
|
|
|
| What will emerge is a much more complex, nuanced series of interlocking episodes in Scotland's linguistic history. |
Saints preserve us!
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
|
If you think about the historical evidence (ie the written material) available from this time I don't see how one can avoid going wrong. We must be fair to them.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Apparently, in manuscript F of the Anglo-Saxon chronicle the Scots are referred to as SCITHI.
Does anyone know online where there is a searchable copy of manuscript F? I want to actually see if SCITHI is there.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Pulp History
In: Wales
|
|
|
|
| Rocky wrote: | Apparently, in manuscript F of the Anglo-Saxon chronicle the Scots are referred to as SCITHI.
Does anyone know online where there is a searchable copy of manuscript F? I want to actually see if SCITHI is there. |
If one assumes the AS pronunciation of 'sc' as the modern 'sh', as in 'scyld' being 'shield' - then the Scots are being described as 'Shitty'..... perhaps it's an adjective rather than a noun? Not very helpful but amusing to a grumpy old southerner.
_________________
Question everything!
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Boreades
In: finity and beyond
|
|
|
|
| Mick Harper wrote: |
It would be interesting to know whether the Scottish Lords knew they were supposed to be the Scotii of Ireland and were slightly ashamed of such roots, though "choosing" to be Scythians doesn't seem much of a step-up. |
My ancestors used to paddle across the seas in between every summer, and lived in both Ireland and the Highlands of Scotland.
For centuries, socially and economically, the Western Isles were closer to Ireland than they were the Sassanachs from lowland and eastern Scotland. This continued until James (of Edinburgh) invaded the Highlands by force and installed overlords in place of many clan chiefs.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Pulp History
In: Wales
|
|
|
|
| Boreades wrote: | | Mick Harper wrote: | | It would be interesting to know whether the Scottish Lords knew they were supposed to be the Scotii of Ireland and were slightly ashamed of such roots, though "choosing" to be Scythians doesn't seem much of a step-up. |
My ancestors used to paddle across the seas in between every summer, and lived in both Ireland and the Highlands of Scotland.
For centuries, socially and economically, the Western Isles were closer to Ireland than they were the Sassanachs from lowland and eastern Scotland. This continued until James (of Edinburgh) invaded the Highlands by force and installed overlords in place of many clan chiefs. |
Yes, it is assumed that the Irish crossed the sea and settled in Western Highlands - makes you wonder what they did with the original inhabitants.... probably wiped them out or drove them east in classic orthodox tradition. Or there is the more modern 'Celto brotherhood' assumption that any take-over was peaceful and loving and the Picts gladly gave up their lands and joined them in creating twisty Germanic artfoms..... any other suggestions?
_________________
Question everything!
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Boreades
In: finity and beyond
|
|
|
|
| Pulp History wrote: |
Yes, it is assumed that the Irish crossed the sea and settled in Western Highlands - makes you wonder what they did with the original inhabitants.... probably wiped them out or drove them east in classic orthodox tradition. Or there is the more modern 'Celto brotherhood' assumption that any take-over was peaceful and loving and the Picts gladly gave up their lands and joined them in creating twisty Germanic artfoms..... any other suggestions? |
I'm not saying they were Celts and I'm not saying they were Picts, and I'm not saying who came first, or claiming they are ethnic-cleansers or proto-hippies. Just that they regularly travelled by sea from one place to another.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Boreades
In: finity and beyond
|
|
|
|
Actually if it is folklore you are interested in:
| Ra wrote: | | The Scottish nobs claiming to be Templars is naturally another issue altogether, since not tied to origins. |
| Mick Harper wrote: | | But the Templars slipped in somehow too. Oddly, the Templars tended to come from everywhere around Normandy but not Normandy itself. That's a puzzler. If true. |
There are special cocktails of "Known History" and Creation Myths at work here.
Did the Templar fleet disappear from La Rochelle in 1307? Probably, because King Louis was mounting a hostile takeover..
Did some Templars go to Scotland? Probably but not to hide, because they were already established in Scotland since King David's time (c.1100 perhaps), and he seems to have spent time in Normandy while he was king.
Did they help Robert The Bruce? Probably they helped each other, because Brucey had been excommunicated by the Pope, and was being hunted by Edward 1st of England, who was a right ruthless bugger, even by English Historian accounts.
Did a band of Templars appear at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314, led by Angus Og MacDonald and turn the tide of the battle? Yes, if you're a Proud Highlander. No, if you're an English Historian who insist that it was a rabble of village women and children that panicked the English Knights to turn tail and flee the battle field.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
The Library Index 
FAQ 
Search
Register
Profile 
Log in to check your private messages 
Log in 
