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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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The Romans are supposed to have attained their prowess at managing water supply from the Etruscans but the Etruscans are mysterious fellows.
The last person known to have been able to read Etruscan was according to ortho the Roman emperor Claudius (10 BC – AD 54), who interviewed a few locals (still speaking their dying language) and created a dictionary and a 20 volume "history"....both now unfortunately lost.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Of course De Aquaeductu might have been written by a Charles Bertram in which case this a false trail. |
Good spot. Hatty will be following this up if I've got anything to do with it. While you're at it (you not Hatty) you might see who was responsible for Vitruvius. The Etruscans are also supposed to be responsible for straight roads, at least in their towns. If you can find one.
PS It's a pity Claudius didn't give us a British dictionary while he was about it. It was a long wait for Doctor Johnson.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Blimey, it doesn't get any easier, does it? The big point I got is the same one we make about hill forts. It's simply a military nonsense trying to man a fifty-mile wall as it is to man half a mile of hill fort circumference. As Carter points out, you end up with one soldier guarding fifty feet of wall. He also points out that if you build good communication systems eg a parapet so other solders can rush along to help, you also build a way for the attackers to rush along once they gain access to a single point (which they can inevitably do just by concentrating at that point).
He definitely hasn't cracked it -- his version is way too complicated. But his habit of systematising should be a lesson to historians and archaeologists in general. How much wheat does a garrison need, how much limestone to build a section of wall, where do you get it, how do you move it etc. Fascinatingly boring.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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It sounds like the wall had a similar function to dykes, 'Grim's ditches' and so forth, i.e. barriers to stop people from circumventing toll posts. He notes the two weak spots at either end where people could feasibly go round the wall by sea, not applicable to drovers of course, so it's probably worth looking again at the coastal archaeology for signs of, as it were, wall extensions.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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This is a natural conclusion for the likes of us, and I suppose we would assume that was its original purpose -- even Carter makes a big thing about it being turf-covered at first -- it does not explain the obvious military regularity of the whole thing. It is true animals (and people) can get through at any point, and therefore the barrier has to be continuous, but why build forts at regular intervals when a) it doesn't take a garrison to stop toll avoidance and b) drovers' routes are few and far between.
However, one idea occurs. If your chief security concern is armed groups on horseback cf reivers then all this makes a bit more sense. The antidote to such organised hostile enterprises is not stopping them, just making them unworthwhile.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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It seems likely that Roman communication routes were a) mainly for trade purposes, and b) re-used/ refurbished versions of pre-existing (trade) routes. You find major Roman towns such as London, Colchester and York all on or near Ermine (Hermes) Street, the great north-south road.
Romanisation of ancient trade routes clearly occurred across the board and wasn't confined to Britain. Take the longest long-distance route, the 'Chad Meridian' or Tin Way, which we tracked from the North Pole down to the island of Tarifa, Spain's southernmost point, though obviously the putative meridian isn't marked by a continuous 'road'. The most important town in Roman Spain was Mérida, which is still the capital city of Extremadura. It's not slap bang on the imaginary line though very close, not quite as close as Medellin, or Metellinum as it was called in Latin.
The Vía de La Plata (Silver Way) or Ruta de la Plata (Silver Route) is an ancient commercial and pilgrimage path that crosses the west of Spain from north to south, connecting Mérida to Astorga. An extended form begins further south in Seville and reaches north to the Bay of Biscay at Gijón.
The historical origins of this route are uncertain. It is believed, based on diverse archaeological findings, that the route was used for commercial purposes involving tin. Tin was present in many regions of the Iberian Peninsula including Tartessos. |
Perhaps Mérida, Meridia in Latin, references the meridian though the official, slightly peculiar, explanation is the name derives from Emerita Augusta, Augustus being the city's founder. Either way it's on the Via Plata which croses Spain from Cadiz, the most southerly port after Tarifa, to the Pyrenees. It's used by pilgrims to Santiago as an alternative to the more northerly 'French' route.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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We have never established much connectivity between Megalithic geography and place names apart from the various Leons. I discount lans and saints' names for the moment. Merida and meridian is not very persuasive if it's both a one-off and only near the meridian. But we might as well take the weirdo's at their word and assume that Emerita is a meridian word and see if that turns up anything.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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So rather mysteriously Pontius Pilate builds a great Roman monumental stepped street that led to the foot of the Temple Mount.
https://on.natgeo.com/2o2AzE2
the lead author of the study, speculates that Pilate’s construction of the street “may have been to appease the residents of Jerusalem,” as well as to “aggrandize his name through major building projects.” |
Yep Pontius hates the Jews so much he engages in massive construction projects like the road, and the aqueduct, no wonder the Jews revolted.
So again what was previously thought as being built by Herod the Great turns out to be Roman.........Wiki unintentionally gives the game away.
Herodian architecture is a style of classical architecture characteristic of the numerous building projects undertaken during the reign (37–4 BC) of Herod the Great, the Roman client king of Judea. Herod undertook many colossal building projects, most famously his reconstruction of the Temple in Jerusalem (c. 19 BC). Many of his structures were built upon comparable, previous Hasmonean buildings and most of his have, in their turn, vanished as well.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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Didn't this get mentioned earlier/elsewhere?
i.e.
Pontius (as a puppet King under Roman direction) was doing the bidding of Emperor Hadrian (he of Hadrian's Wall fame), diverting the excess of Roman troops' military engineering skills into grandiose civil engineering projects.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Over on a discussion forum that incautiously mentioned THOBR and therefore had me scuttling over to see what they thought of it (they didn't say) they were discussing, and I quote, Roman Roads: What Were They Used For? That's our kind of question, weird. It was all about Roman roads apparently having deliberately engineered concrete humps and bumps in them -- a bit like our sleeping policemen. So no change there if Southend CID are anything to go by. (I can use that in the act.)
As usual I had got the wrong end of the stick because of arrogant inattention and as usual by scrambling to catch up I solved the problem and as usual I'm the only person who thinks so. It is highly refreshing being treated as an amiable dolt, I know now how you lot must feel. Any road (I'll keep that one in) my explanation is what do you do when you've got roads that are straight which means up hill and down dale and therefore traversable by animals and humans, but you need things to be carried by carts that, like my dad's Rolls Canardly, roll down hills but can hardly get up them. (It's a family trait.) You can read all about it here, at very great length
https://www.stolenhistory.org/threads/roman-roads-what-were-they-used-for.2330/
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Hey, I just noticed this from Wiley further up the page
So rather mysteriously Pontius Pilate builds a great Roman monumental stepped street that led to the foot of the Temple Mount. |
This would be to ease the passage of Roman dignitaries being carried up in litters. I expect.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Quite a nice piece of revisionism here about an archaeologists' pet word. I'm not endorsing it, mind. I just like the cut of his jib. Or as Borry will say, it struck a cord (which actually looked OK to me having lived with a Jotul. Rather demanding sexually but a good cook. No wonder they're illegal now in London. Never use Madagascan rosewood though, they're now worth ten thousand pounds per trunk. If you can find one, they're an endangered species. Can I go now, please?)
https://www.stolenhistory.org/threads/roman-hypocausts-are-a-myth.2547/
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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Let me take you down,
An evaluation in the fields south of Silbury Hill in 2010: Romano-British settlement, later alluviation and water meadows |
'cause I'm going to Silbury Fields.
Although Roman settlement by the Hill has been known since the 19th century, the extent of evidence in the field to its south was unexpected |
Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see
by Vicky Crosby and Nicola Hembrey with contributions by Polydora Baker, Barry Bishop, Duncan H. Brown, Gill Campbell, Matt Canti, Paul Davies, Kayt Marter Brown, Simon Mays, Sam Moorhead, Matt Phelps, Ruth Pelling, Helen M. Roberts and Jane Timby |
It's getting hard to be someone but it all works out
Phase 5: Post-Roman and medieval - No Anglo-Saxon or medieval features were found |
It doesn't matter much to me
Almost 60% of the coins are copies or possible copies. 30% of the Silbury Ditch coins were copies, but the majority of these were from the period 348-64 when copies are normally common. However, the large number of copies of Valentinianic pieces in both assemblages is unusual and merits further consideration. |
Nothing is real and nothing to get hung about
https://www.academia.edu/21117138/An_evaluation_in_the_fields_south_of_Silbury_Hill_in_2010_Romano-British_settlement_later_alluviation_and_water_meadows
Silbury Fields forever
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Well, I don't have another Dylan song to match yours, Borrie, but I can explain why the Anglo-Saxons are missing. If you are coming down the Bath Road from Ebbsfleet and you are looking to your left at the inopportune moment, you'd completely miss Silbury Hill.
You can go now because I want to talk to Wiley. Wiley, what's a copy of a coin? Aren't all coins, as it were, copies? These appear to be genuine (in the sense of being old) so do they mean they are rough rustic attempts at the real thing? Surely that would either be allowed (you can't motor them all in from across the Channel) or if not, then surely having been in the empire for a couple of centuries, British artificers would be able to churn out the not-very-difficult feat of decent copies. The reason I ask is this
Almost 60% of the coins are copies or possible copies |
'Almost 60%' clearly means they could with reasonable unerringness identify the 40% that were genuine. But then 'copies or possible copies' seems to indicate that some of the 60% might not be copies, and therefore genuine, and hence the '40%' figure is no longer unerring. And just finally since we won't be hearing any more about
the large number of copies of Valentinianic pieces in both assemblages is unusual and merits further consideration |
if it really does merit further consideration, could you fill us in on the significance. Oh, yes, and a pointer to where the stresses should be placed in 'entinianic' because I want to mention the word casually at our next Indoor Antiques Roadshow. Now back to Borrie. Thank you for your patience, Borrie. Yes, just to anticipate you, I wasn't referring to your wife, Patience, Borrie. I understand her name is Shirley.
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