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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Leon wrote: | | Is intelligence genetically determined? I don't know, but I doubt it. |
So will I.
When Kangaroos do calculus.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Leon wrote: | | Take away these hallucinatory inborn characteristics and the term doesn't mean anything. |
There's only one person here suffering from hallucinations.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Leon wrote: | | Why is it that everyone who posits the idea of superior and inferior races always finds that the former is the one that he belongs to, as if it were a wondrous coincidence? |
You're going to have to improve or you will soon be laughed out of here.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Leon wrote: | | And by the way, Grant, or anyone else who thinks I'm talking nonsense, can you answer my question about the "Jewish race"? It's easy enough to say, You're full of shit. |
The existence of planets does not depend on whether or not Pluto is one.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Leon has defended his position by first of all denying the concept of race and, when that didn't avail, denied the concept of intelligence. As I have already pointed out, these are in themselves splendid examples of radical AE thinking but only when the arguer genuinely believes in the propositions. Leon is just waving them to get out of an intellectual jam.
By the way, the rest of you should remember that this will be the first time in his life that Leon has run into root-and-branch argument with people that all other signals indicate are his peers so we should be as sympathetic as possible, He hasn't had our advantages.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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Leon, it's probably best to ignore the fuzzy bits around the edges... such as degree of pigmentation or whether Jews or Germans or whatever constitute racial groups... and just concentrate on basics.
It's difficult to argue against the fact that the primaries in Ishmael rainbow (Caucasoids, Mongoloids, Negroids and Australoids) have each developed a series of physical characteristics which set them apart from the others... and that these different characteristics are largely determined by genetics.
These differences do not denote superiority or inferiority... they are just differences.
It is naive to assume that intelligence, alone among human characteristics, is homogenous throughout the entire gene pool.
And it is wrong to assume that those who accept that these differences exist are racist.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| These differences do not denote superiority or inferiority... they are just differences. |
This is, I have found, the best way in under British (and US conditions) to persuade liberals to think about the issues. Surveys with clear 'intelligence' connotations, eg number of GCSEs passed, always show the same pattern: every 'race' comes out ahead of the natives except blecks, who are consistently bottom. In other words 'whites' are consistently second-to-bottom. Since both native Brits ("Cor, we conquered the world despite being stupid!") and liberals are pleased with this outcome , it is possible to use this with liberals to underpin the race/intelligence nexus.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| It is naive to assume that intelligence, alone among human characteristics, is homogenous throughout the entire gene pool. |
It's even more naive to assign an average intelligence quota to a large group of people based on their physical distinctions.
| Surveys with clear 'intelligence' connotations, eg number of GCSEs passed, always show the same pattern: every 'race' comes out ahead of the natives except blecks, who are consistently bottom. |
Anyone who thinks GCSE exam results are evidence of intelligence needs their head examined. Having accepted that, yes, exams are the current though skewed measuring-stick, it comes down to cultural background: Chinese kids for example work hard because of their family ethic. After x number of generations obedience becomes instilled.
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Grant
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| And by the way, Grant, or anyone else who thinks I'm talking nonsense, can you answer my question about the "Jewish race"? It's easy enough to say, You're full of shit. |
Is there a Jewish race? Hitler certainly thought so and so do extreme orthodox groups in Israel which certainly don't recognise the idea of Chinese and African Jews. But in reality Jews, like Arabs, are semites and just a branch of the caucasian race. And Jews, of course, are the best refutation of your argument. Thousands of years of breeding for specific attributes has led to Jews having certain characteristics which cannot be denied.
Please try to explain why in a list of the world's top hundred chess players 50% will be Jewish; also in a list of the world's top hundred fastest runners there will be at least 90 black men and not a single Jew.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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| Hatty wrote: | | It is naive to assume that intelligence, alone among human characteristics, is homogenous throughout the entire gene pool. |
It's even more naive to assign an average intelligence quota to a large group of people based on their physical distinctions.
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So we have several groups of people that are each readily distinguishable from the other groups by way of their physical characteristics... which we all agree are largely genetically determined.
These genetic differences came about as a result of the various groups being descended from founder populations which were at one time remote and genetically isolated from one another.
It seem very strange that the selection pressures (be they natural or sexual) that lead to the various groups developing not only external physical differences but also internal physiological differences, should somehow manage to leave the cranial contents unaffected.
Any given group of people will have a broad range of intellects within its population. To then split this group up into several distinct breeding populations (as was the case with humans) subject them to a variety of selection pressures and then expect the descendents of each of these distinct populations to have exactly the same average intelligence quotient as the descendents of all the other groups is, as I said before, naive.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Naive? Fookin' impossible of course but liberals can believe anything rather be nasty to anyone other than ....well, it usually amounts to themselves. Which is in their favour.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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All depends on whether you believe intelligence can be measured. Claims about people based on categorising them into groups are invariably contradicted by reality. Has anyone ever categorised a group correctly? It would be daft to say every group is equal and equally daft to say genetics is responsible.
Nobody disputes there are periodically exceptional minds like a Galileo or a Darwin who change the world-view but other people followed the same line of reasoning without reaching the correct conclusion; they're no less intelligent.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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| Hatty wrote: | | All depends on whether you believe intelligence can be measured. |
No it doesn't.
It depends only on the application of reason and logic.
You do not need to be able to measure the amount of pigment in a person's skin to realise that some people possess more than others... likewise intelligence.
And no... I'm not suggesting a correlation between skin pigmentation and intelligence... heaven forbid!
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Ah, God is a liberal...I had long suspected.
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| Grant wrote: | But in reality Jews, like Arabs, are semites and just a branch of the caucasian race. And Jews, of course, are the best refutation of your argument. Thousands of years of breeding for specific attributes has led to Jews having certain characteristics which cannot be denied.
Please try to explain why in a list of the world's top hundred chess players 50% will be Jewish; also in a list of the world's top hundred fastest runners there will be at least 90 black men and not a single Jew. |
According to Arthur Koestler in The Thirteenth Tribe, more than half of the Jews living in the world at the time he wrote the book (1970s) were descended from Turks. The inhabitants of the Khazar kingdom, located between the Black and Caspian Seas in the foothills of the Caucasus and the flatlands to the north in what is now Russia, converted to Judaism in the late 7th or early 8th century and were driven out by barbarians in the 12th, thus becoming the Jews of Eastern Europe, called Ashkenazi. The Sephardi Jews of the Mediterranean are the descendants of Semites - and both those groups have mixed a good deal with non-Jews. I'll leave it to you and Hitler to argue about whether they are a branch of the socalled Caucasian race.
Now, what specific attributes have the Jews bred themselves for, and how did they go about it? Who directed this breeding plan, some college of geneticist rabbis? Were Mendel and Mendeleev involved? Was it something like breeding dogs? Did they kill children who did not have the right attributes? Do they still do that?
People who excel at chess and sports and every other activity that requires measurable accomplishment do so because they work at it harder than anyone else, and from an earlier age: that is, they are motivated by what is important in their cultural milieu. Or do you think there's a chess gene and a running gene?
During the Second World War the US Air Force hired and trained Eskimos as mechanics because they had a special ability to hear details of sound that other people could not hear. This was developed in conditions of living on the ice, where sound perception is essential to survival. I suppose you will say this was genetically determined. I say it was learned. Today Eskimos live in settlements of well-heated houses. Do they still have this special ability?
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