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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Most desert plants grow along the coastline, which might explain the lack of true desert islands. |
We have already explained the lack of desert islands by the "eastern effect", that is all islands in the world are either less than five hundred kilometres across (and therefore wholly within 500 kms of an eastern ocean) or, in the case of Borneo, New Guinea etc are wholly non-desert for other reasons.
The two islands that do have deserts, Greenland and Australia, we choose not to call islands.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| hmm.. Greenland is the only place I can find that might not conform. There is some green in the tundra areas, no mountain range, and there is also ocean to the east. . |
Greenland's desert is in the far north, and there is not tundra at these latitudes. Like Antarctica, there is no foliage of any kind. The desert is also on the west side rather than the east, in accordance with the Eastern Effect dictates but the fact that the Greenland desert does not obey the Eastern Effect entirely (although statistics around here are not entirely to be trusted) may assist you in identifying the causation of the Eastern Effect
| Of course, it's too cold there for liquid water |
The theory does not distinguish between the various types of precipitation (fog-vapour fanatics take note). Even desert Greenland and Anatarctica are covered with water since what does fall, stays indefinitely.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Chad wrote: | | I do truly admire your genius... My own very meagre contribution simply withers into insignificance in the shadow of your overwhelming greatness. |
That's the spirit!
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | The solution will probably be found at the next level down ie organic chemistry, and how hydrogen and oxygen enter the carbon world. But of course simpler solutions are always welcome. |
Seems to me the solution is quite simple.
- First plants are sea-weeds. Some of these exploit marginal swamp zones along the ocean's edge.
- The plants produce transpiration purely as an incidental bi-product of photosynthesis (they are carrying on the same water-filtration above the waterline their ancestors preformed below).
- Additional plants reach further inland, taking advantage of the newly hydrogenated atmosphere.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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My own very meagre contribution simply withers into insignificance in the shadow of your overwhelming greatness.
That's the spirit! |
Just in case we have any more who-said-what disputes, what meagre contributions has Chad made to the theory? He seems only to have guessed correctly so far (though he is to be commended for that).
You may, Ishmael, point out anything originally contributed by you (or anybody else) during this re-run. Sea-weeds, by the way, are mine though that was to explain the Eastern Effect -- silver iodide, remember? -- but we'll come to that later. The problem Grant posited was how the, for instance, Amazonian rain forest can start right next to the Atacama. Your explanation would work only moderately well for this. Certainly it is not something we covered in any of our discussions on or after the TH.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Just in case we have any more who-said-what disputes, what meagre contributions has Chad made to the theory? |
None so far. Just congratulating him on the dexterity he has demonstrated in so deftly following in your footsteps.
| You may, Ishmael, point out anything originally contributed by you (or anybody else) during this re-run. Sea-weeds, by the way, are mine though that was to explain the Eastern Effect -- silver iodide, remember? -- but we'll come to that later. |
Yes. I have a less complex explanation for the eastern effect. It's the same explanation upon which I rely to explain the western effect and upon which I rely to explain the absence of desert islands. It's essentially the same force responsible for holding back the Atacama at the Andes as well. One rule. Works universally. Doesn't require any speculation about atmospheric chemistry either.
But I'll bring that up when it's time.
| The problem Grant posited was how the, for instance, Amazonian rain forest can start right next to the Atacama. |
Well...I am suggesting that, temporally speaking, the Amazon didn't start at the Andes: It ended there. It started on the eastern shores when the first kelps "crawled ashore". The vegetation line then slowly moved westward.
Of course, this means that the first continent populated by plants had to have been to the east of the land upon which sea-weeds first crawled ashore (interesting exercise to model out the proposal).
| Your explanation would work only moderately well for this. |
What problems do you see?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Santiago isn't on an island. Nor is Valparaiso. A peninsula is not an island is it? Why isn't there an Atacama on Portugal's coast?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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You have not grasped the point. If you examine the east coast of South America you will note that the Plate Estuary brings the ocean sufficiently far inland so that Santiago is now within 500 kms. of the sea. (The actual figure of the Eastern Effect has never been worked out, some of you could make yourselves useful...)
But then the eastern coastline trends eastwards again so the Atacama at the latitude below Santiago is re-imposed. But as you get into the Patagonian Peninsula, the continent is permanently less than 500 kms across so there is no desert anywhere. (By the way, since this came up before, there is no desert in Argentina, even though they sometimes claim there is for local, political reasons.
| Why isn't there an Atacama on Portugal's coast? |
Because there is sufficient bio-mass in the southern states of the USA (ie at Portugal's latitude to the west) to ensure that Portugal gets all its rain from the Western Effect. The Eastern Effect is only decisive when there is no Western Effect.
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Grant
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| Sea-weeds, by the way, are mine though that was to explain the Eastern Effect -- silver iodide, remember? |
So sea-weed explains the Eastern effect? But don't you get sea-weed on the western shores as well?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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This is what comes of asides. Let us keep to the big picture for now; you will have an opportunity to pick out your favourite nits later. The next step--assuming you are all on board still--is to explore the world, checking on deserts and seeing what general principles still need resolution.
Since we have finished with the Atacama, let us continue on round the southern hemisphere. Take, first, Africa from the equator southwards. In accordance with the Eastern Effect, you should draw a line parallel with the east coast but five hundred kilometres inland. There can only be desert to the west of this line.
Now examine South America for the Western Effect (the width of the Pacific will rule out the rest of the world from consideration). Using your skill and judgement (as they used to say with Spot The Ball) consider at what point South American verbiage changes from wide to narrow and from soaking wet rain-forest to rather arid pampas. This will give you the cut-off point for water vapour arriving via the Western Effect.
Do your two lines together produce the Kalahari?
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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| Mick wrote: | | Just in case we have any more who-said-what disputes, what meagre contributions has Chad made to the theory? He seems only to have guessed correctly so far (though he is to be commended for that). |
For the record... the very meager contribution I was referring to (in paying homage to your genius) was my contribution to the TH not the theory (I doubt even my notion of the Andes diverting the dry desert air, so as to leave your hydrological cycle pedaling its wares unmolested below was original... I bet Ishmael had beaten me to that as usual).
However if I managed to arrive at what you consider to be the correct answers, it was not by guesswork, but rather by analyzing the available data, whether collected from direct observation or trawled from the net (sometimes under the influence of your guiding hints) then running various scenarios through my head, before finally subjecting each one to trial by reason and logic.
If at the end of that my conclusions matched yours, then although that is by no means proof of correctness, it is for sure an indication that they are reasonable and logical.
That (I hope) was my very meager contribution.
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Grant
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| consider at what point South American verbiage changes from wide to narrow and from soaking wet rain-forest to rather arid pampas. |
Round about the latitude of Rio the vegetation starts to reduce and the continent narrows. On the other side of the Atlantic it gets very dry.
Can I get a gold star Sir, please Sir?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Those who ask don't get. But for your Bronze Star, the one you didn't get for swimming a width, account for all the non-desert areas of Australia.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| If you examine the east coast of South America you will note that the Plate Estuary brings the ocean sufficiently far inland so that Santiago is now within 500 kms. of the sea. |
Sorry but where does the term eastern effect come from? The smaller the area the less chance plants can grow in the leeward shelter surely.
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