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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Ah well, this is just a bit of the Velikovsian 600 year gap. Menelaus, Helen's outraged hubby, is King of Sparta so presumably Sparta not only existed in 1250 BC when orthodoxy places the Trojan War but was one of the dominant Greek powers. Then, as you say, it disappears while the Greek Dark Ages "happen" before popping up again to be a dominant power in the Classical Age.
This is probably the source of the Sleeping Beauty myth.
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TelMiles
In: London
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | A small point: I often read that nobody can find Sparta nowadays such is the paucity of its remains. But I read just as often that such and such has been located at Sparta. What is the actual present status of the site of Sparta? |
I was watching a programme on telly the other night about it and it said the city is most probably underneath the modern one. Not a rock solid conclusion, I agree...
_________________
Against all Gods.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I didn't know there was a modern city! What's it called (in Greek). I ask because one of my old themes used to be Sparta vs Athens, who won? Answer: Athens is now a big capital city and Sparta can't even be found.
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TelMiles
In: London
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It's called Sparti in Greek I do believe. I think that's in a certain Greek dialect. The Greeks are under the distinct impression that it is definitely on the site of the old Sparta.
Just looked it up, I was right with "Sparti", but it has another name in something called Tsakonian (?)...guess what it is? Sparta!
It was founded after the Greek War of Independence in 1834 on the site of a small village that occupied the site of old Sparta. So a possible reason they can't find the old Sparta is that they destroyed it when building the new one.
Ps. I have also wondered why Sparta, which won the Peloponnesian war sunk into obscurity.
_________________
Against all Gods.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | I didn't know there was a modern city! What's it called (in Greek). I ask because one of my old themes used to be Sparta vs Athens, who won? Answer: Athens is now a big capital city and Sparta can't even be found. |
The point which forms the cornerstone of my upcoming treatise: Why Rome Never Fell (But the Other One Did).
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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The secret police in Sparta were Krypteia, is that the source of 'cryptic', 'crypticity', etc. etc.?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| It was founded after the Greek War of Independence in 1834 on the site of a small village that occupied the site of old Sparta |
Come on, Tel! Have you learned nothing about the lengths nationalists will go! Dig deeper (like they didn't).
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| TelMiles wrote: | | Ps. I have also wondered why Sparta, which won the Peloponnesian war sunk into obscurity. |
And while you're at it, wonder too why Rome, which fell in 490 AD, yet survives today -- while Constantinople, which lasted right up to 1400-and-something, might as well have never been for all the world remembers of it.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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While we're on the Graeco-Roman topic, here's a little puzzler that should be required thinking for place-name theorists:
The Greeks called it Byzantium (which is a pre-Greek name)
The Romans called it Constantinople (which is a Classical Greek name)
The Turks call it Istanbul (which is a demotic Greek name).
Thank God the Russians never conquered the place, else we would by now have to be getting our tongues round a Turkish name.
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TelMiles
In: London
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Come on, Tel! Have you learned nothing about the lengths nationalists will go! Dig deeper (like they didn't). |
But it could also be that the Greek King (forget his name) wanted to bring back Sparta's glory days and so had the city reconstructed.
Apparently there are ruins there and other achaeological evidence, but then I suppose they would say that.
_________________
Against all Gods.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Tel wrote: | But it could also be that the Greek King (forget his name) wanted to bring back Sparta's glory days and so had the city reconstructed. |
Wiki says
Prior to modern times, the site of Sparta was occupied by a relatively small village that lay in the shadow of Mystras, a more important medieval Greek settlement nearby. In 1834, after the Greek War of Independence, King Otto of Greece decreed that the village was to be rebuilt into a city on the site of and bear the same name as ancient Sparta (pronounced Sparti in Demotic Greek, Sparta in Tsakonian). |
Mystras, the second most important city after Constantinople, lies a few miles west of Sparta. Although it was ruled by the Byzantine emperor until a few years after 1453, the area was controlled by the Venetians. Not such an evocative pedigree as Sparta.
There's another oddity about this era, the Chronicle of Morea, of which four extant copies exist in unexpected locations, namely Copenhagen, Paris, Turin and Bern. Wiki says there are "two parallel Greek texts, as well as three copies" (N.B. both of them "copies of the Paris version") and goes on "It (the Greek text) is written in the spoken Greek of the time, with the inclusion of several French words". It's a bit déjà vu I fear.
| The oldest text is that of Copenhagen, the language of which is more archaic. The Parisian, more recent, text is simpler in language, has less foreign words and is less contemptuous of the local Greeks, since the copier has omitted several anti-Greek paragraphs. |
A guileless admission of the altering of 'historical' records.
And...
| The difference of about one century between the Copenhagen and Parisian version shows a considerable number of linguistic differences due to the rapid evolution of the Greek language. | |
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Clearly, the presence of ancient ruins is no guide. They're not going to choose the only bit of Greece without ancient ruins! But, like the bogus discovery of Troy, it is perfectly possible to choose anywhere and give it the name of a city. And talking of Schliemann, the Greek kings were Germans and nineteenth century Germans were mad keen on discovering classical archaeology. You couldn't make it up. But they could.
Good spot, Hatty. As far as I know Demotic Greek wasn't written down until the nineteenth century so this is definitely worth our close attention.
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TelMiles
In: London
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With respect to languages being written down, when is the first instance of German being written down?
_________________
Against all Gods.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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Strasbourg Oaths, innit? Same as French.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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That's rather interesting (if true...) because this is exactly the moment that the Franco-German Carolingian empire was being broken into France and Germany.
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