MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Myth-making (NEW CONCEPTS)
Reply to topic Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 11, 12, 13  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

I have my doubts.
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Also, the book claims that certain constellation shapes matched, to a greater or lesser degree, specific geographical areas of Greece and Asia Minor named in the Iliad.

That the constellations are in fact a map of earth is an old idea. Lists have been made of the various concordances but the only one I remember is Perseus = Persia. The constellations are all highly subjective so it is reasonably logical that the naming and learning of them must have served some better purpose than mere idle fancy (which is basically the orthodox view of why the Ancients bothered).
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

- The return of Achilles to the field of battle is an allegory for the appearance in Greek skies of the star Sirius.

The mention of Achilles reminds me of 'eccles', from Greek ekklesia apparently meaning 'being-called-out' we are told, which rang a (church) bell. Idle perusing of wiki leads to the information that Achilles was the protector of sailors and navigators in ancient lore.

To some of the people who come to this island, Achilles appears in dreams, to others he would appear even during their navigation, if they were not too far away, and would instruct them as to which part of the island they would better anchor their ships.

A church or eccles is of course an unmistakable landmark often from out at sea.

The Achilles' heel is the weak spot. A heel or Hell stone in a megalithic context is usually reckoned to be where the sun first strikes. Not a weak spot but essential for taking bearings. In a church context the foundation on top of a pre-Christian site, so common as to be a rule rather than an exception, is a potential weak spot, quite a risk anyway. Must be difficult to tell if the congregation are true converts or still enmired in their bad old ways.
Send private message
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Mick Harper wrote:
That the constellations are in fact a map of earth is an old idea. Lists have been made of the various concordances but the only one I remember is Perseus = Persia.


Well now. If that is true, you are going to end up with several Persias! Each region will map the stars to their local trading geography. And of course, with that will come great historical confusion!
Send private message
Rocky



View user's profile
Reply with quote

In THOBR, it mentions that some of the best archeological evidence will never be found because it is under modern-day cities.

If ancient Troy in fact existed, and it is not the site that was identified as Troy in the 1800's, then where was Troy?
Send private message
DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

I can't remember whether/where around here someone suggests that (simple) monotheism was the religion of the masses, while (convoluted) polytheism was the religion of the ruling elite, with the time and education to digest all the details. {Mind you, ask Joe Schmoe about his pet subject and you'll soon find out how much the man in the street can store and juggle in his head.} The opposite was tabled early in this thread: that ordinary people need multiple deities-or-saints-or-whatever to serve multifarious practical purposes.

I came across the Wiki article on Kashrut/Kashruth/Kashrus, "the set of Jewish dietary laws", recently and found it to be rather telling. I assume it's a pretty fair summary.

    Food in accord with halakha (Jewish law) is termed kosher in English, from the Ashkenazi pronunciation of the Hebrew term kashér, meaning "fit" (in this context, fit for consumption by Jews according to traditional Jewish law).

    The Torah does not state reasons for most kashrut laws. Many varied reasons have been suggested, including philosophical, practical and hygienic.
I think they've missed one: "because we can". It's all about farming/civilisation and having the wealth / time / organisation / ... to be precious about these things. {Like the townie girl on telly who was squeamish about a carrot pulled out of the ground and could only eat things that had "gone through a process". Or my nephew who says "why does anyone eat liver when there is steak?"} Seems to me, Judaism (to the extent that Kashrut exemplifies the heart of the matter) is a literally elitist, citified, ruling-class religion:

  • Only meat from particular species is permissible. Mammals that both chew their cud (ruminate) and have cloven hooves can be kosher. -- Certain herbivorous farm animals then...

  • a dores (predatory bird) is not kosher. -- ...but not your hunting animals.

  • Additionally, kosher birds possess three physical characteristics: an extra toe, a zefek (crop) and a korkoban (gizzard) with a peelable lumen. -- Characteristics of chickens, no doubt.

  • individual Jews are barred from merely applying these regulations alone; an established tradition (masorah) is necessary to allow birds to be consumed, even if it can be substantiated that they meet all four criteria. -- Not matters of plain fact then: it's a team game, with sumission to authority.

  • Fish must have fins and scales to be kosher. Shellfish and other non-fish water fauna are not kosher. -- Only via the fishing industry.

  • Insects are not kosher, except for certain species of kosher locust -- The ones that are as good as farmed?

  • That an animal is untamed does not preclude it from being kosher, but a wild animal must be trapped and ritually slaughtered

  • Generally any animal that eats other animals, whether they kill their food or eat carrion, is not kosher, as well as any animal that was partially eaten by other animals.

  • Meat and milk (or derivatives) cannot be mixed in the sense that meat and dairy products are not served at the same meal, served or cooked in the same utensils, or stored together. Observant Jews have separate sets of dishes, and sometimes different kitchens, for meat and milk, and wait anywhere between one and six hours after eating meat before consuming milk products.

  • Mammals and fowl must be slaughtered in a specific fashion: slaughter is done by a trained individual (a shochet) using a special method of slaughter, shechita. -- The professionals.

  • The body must be checked after slaughter to confirm that the animal had no medical condition or defect that would have caused it to die of its own accord within a year, which would make the meat unsuitable. -- Purity, pickiness, time...

  • Observant Jews often have separate sets of meat and dairy utensils for Passover use only. -- Sooo Middle Class.

  • Certain foods must have been prepared in whole or in part by Jews, including grape wine, certain cooked foods... cheese... butter... bread...

  • the fruit of the first three years of a tree's growth or replanting are forbidden for eating or any other use as orlah

  • produce grown in the Land of Israel on the seventh year is Shviit, and unless managed carefully is forbidden as a violation of the Shmita (Sabbatical Year).
God wrote:
"I am the LORD your God, who have separated you from the peoples."

Ah, there is it in red-and-white. Not Jews from other races, but Jews from other classes.
Send private message
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

DPCrisp wrote:
I can't remember whether/where around here someone suggests that (simple) monotheism was the religion of the masses, while (convoluted) polytheism was the religion of the ruling elite...

That was me.

...with the time and education to digest all the details.

That certainly wasn't.

The opposite was tabled early in this thread: that ordinary people need multiple deities-or-saints-or-whatever to serve multifarious practical purposes.

Yeah. That's the orthodox view. But it relies on a construction of history we inherited from elites. I suspect polytheism may have arrived after monotheism and was projected backward to a fabled golden age.

Only meat from particular species is permissible. Mammals that both chew their cud (ruminate) and have cloven hooves can be kosher. -- Certain herbivorous farm animals then...

This would only suggest the dietary laws were imposed by the elite. Not necessarily the monotheistic universe.

Only via the fishing industry.

Now you've nailed it! The dietary laws were about economic regulation!!! No doubt it was about establishing "fair trade" practices to bring about "full employment." Same impulses that makes it illegal to give tours of Washington D.C. without a tour-guide license!

Ah, there is it in red-and-white. Not Jews from other races, but Jews from other classes.

Fomenko says the same thing: That Jews were a class of people within every ethnic group and not an ethnicity to themselves.
Send private message
Komorikid


In: Gold Coast, Australia
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Rocky wrote:

In THOBR, it mentions that some of the best archeological evidence will never be found because it is under modern-day cities.

If ancient Troy in fact existed, and it is not the site that was identified as Troy in the 1800's, then where was Troy?



It lies beneath the Gog Magog Hills and Wandlebury Hill in Cambridgeshire
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Ishmael wrote:
I suspect polytheism may have arrived after monotheism and was projected backward to a fabled golden age.

There's a quite widespread view that a mother goddess was once universally worshipped as a moon goddess or white goddess aka white sow, somewhat tainted latterly by pig-headed feminists. Perhaps monotheism stems from mother-worship, polytheism from less defined gods. Judaism is famously patriarchal though bloodlines are matrilineal by law.

The dietary laws were about economic regulation!!! No doubt it was about establishing "fair trade" practices to bring about "full employment."

Kashrut laws are about health, the permitted animals are farmed not wild ie. safe to eat. Economics are secondary to safety. Pigs are the anomaly, which might suggest the 'mother goddess' or White Sow was the Jewish holy cow.

Ah, there is it in red-and-white. Not Jews from other races, but Jews from other classes.

Fomenko says the same thing: That Jews were a class of people within every ethnic group and not an ethnicity to themselves.

A nation of shop-keepers?
Send private message
Grant



View user's profile
Reply with quote

That Jews were a class of people within every ethnic group and not an ethnicity to themselves.


Interesting idea, but the DNA evidence is that Jews are closer genetically to other semitic peoples in the Middle East than to any host nation in Europe or USA. And that applies to Ashkenazim and Sephardic Jews
Send private message
Grant



View user's profile
Reply with quote

Pigs are the anomaly


No they're not. They are actually the best evidence for what the dietary laws are all about. The commonest red meat in the world is pork because it's easy - if not compulsory - for ordinary people to keep pigs. You feed them on scraps and worse, they help clean up the village, and they are mighty tasty.

Only successful, non-farming merchants could even think of giving up pork. Once pigs were declared unclean, it became the price you had to pay to demonstrate you were worthy to be in the clan.

And most of the other laws - especially the Sabbath - are also about paying a price. How many poor people could decide not to do any work on a Saturday?
Send private message
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Grant wrote:
Interesting idea, but the DNA evidence is that Jews are closer genetically to other semitic peoples in the Middle East than to any host nation in Europe or USA. And that applies to Ashkenazim and Sephardic Jews


I've my doubts concerning the veracity of any "genetic evidence" on offer today.
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Grant wrote:
The commonest red meat in the world is pork because it's easy - if not compulsory - for ordinary people to keep pigs.

Not in the Middle East. The ban on eating pork obviously isn't about status or economics, ordinary Arab and Israeli villagers have to eat too.

How many poor people could decide not to do any work on a Saturday?

There's no difference between not working on a Sunday.
Send private message
Grant



View user's profile
Reply with quote

There's no difference between not working on a Sunday.


But consider this. Before the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD there were dozens of Jewish sects, but just two traditions survive; the Pharisaic tradition based on the Talmud, and the Samaritans, who don't recognise the Talmud. The Pharisees flourish, but the Samaritans are down to just a few hundred.

The Talmud and its strict rules about religious observance is what Jesus was railing about when he criticised the Pharisees.

Matthew 12 - He went on from there and entered their synagogue. 10 And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" so that they might accuse him. 11 He said to them, "Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." 13 Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." And the man stretched it out, and it was restored, healthy like the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.


The Samaritans obeyed the Sabbath as well but their religious rules were never as rigid as the Pharisees. They even allowed men to marry non Samaritans and recognised the offspring as Jews.
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Sources like Matthew can't be taken at face value, he of course had an agenda.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn there were still "dozens of Jewish sects" interpreting various Talmudic sayings but even the strictest Jewish orthodoxy considers that doing a 'good deed' on the Sabbath is a double blessing. I expect it's the same with all religions, there are always outré fanatics. The Pharisees like any exclusive sect would have to face the problem of inbreeding (which for Parsis has reached crisis point, allegedly).
Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 11, 12, 13  Next

Jump to:  
Page 12 of 13

MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group