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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| As I understand it, the identification of the archaeological "Babylon" with the city of legend rests upon a single piece of evidence. Is this true? |
There was far less evidence than one would have expected but in fairness the exhibition was determinedly focused on Nebuchadnezzar's reign in the 6th century BC so there may be hundreds of tablets for all I know in the bowels of the BM. There were no coins or jewellery or the usual paraphenalia in these kinds of exhibitions I noticed.
(What's disappointing is that no trace of the Hanging Gardens can be found but there are traces of literature recording the species of plants that were revealed to travellers' wondering eyes.)
| Comes from the book of Revelation. |
Revelations predates the RC church. Babylon, like Egypt, was the epitome of luxury and vice; I imagine it as a sort of ancient Dubai populated by oil-rich sheikhs whose lifestyle the rest of us envy.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Hatty wrote: | | There was far less evidence than one would have expected but in fairness the exhibition was determinedly focused on Nebuchadnezzar's reign in the 6th century BC... |
And is there some stone found with that King's name inscribed upon it? Or do they infer the concordance by dating the historical events described in the Bible to the 6th century B.C. and, in parallel, dating the dig to the 6th century B.C.?
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Maybe Azores is related to Arizona. Arizona may be related to Arizonac which comes from the O'odham (Piman) meaning "having a little spring" or from the Basque arizonak which means "good oaks."
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Rocky wrote: | | Maybe Azores is related to Arizona. Arizona may be related to Arizonac which comes from the O'odham (Piman) meaning "having a little spring" or from the Basque arizonak which means "good oaks." |
Using my system (which I have not explained) Arizona is rendered:
A-Ra-Zone
Which is exactly the same as
A-Ra-D
Or Arid.
It would mean, "The First Place of the Sun".
I do not stand by this rendering. It may be right, it may not be. It's just what you get when you plug the word into my device.
Obviously then, A-Zores just means "The first place". It can also be a reference to the first substance, which is where our word Atom comes from. It's also where we get the word Atoll, which is what the Azores are, essentially. Atlantic Atolls. "Atoms of land". Islands.
No mystery.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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A-Ra-Zone
Which is exactly the same as
A-Ra-D |
Is this in any way related to the fact that the English call Z ‘ZeD’?
A simple yes or no will do. - - (And I will not think it enigmatic).
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Obviously then, A-Zores just means "The first place". |
Would the Azores not be 'the last place', the most westerly limit where the sun goes down...unless of course you're coming from the north and they're the most easterly point.
A-Ra-Zone
Which is exactly the same as
A-Ra-D |
That's interesting. There's a place in Israel called Arad which is renowned for its dry healthy air, healthy for people with breathing problems that is, where there's a hill (tel) that's considered sacred, the site of the only 'Yahweh' temple ever discovered apparently.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Chad wrote: | | Is this in any way related to the fact that the English call Z ‘ZeD’? |
Good idea. I'd not considered it. I'm just operating on the principle that D and Z are cognates (that, and the conformity of the words to an expected pattern).
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| the Basque arizonak which means "good oaks." |
Is oak derived from 'ak'? The Basque for oak is given as Aritza. Sounds aristocratic.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Hatty wrote: | | Would the Azores not be 'the last place', the most westerly limit where the sun goes down... |
You would think so, yes. But I'm just reading what the word says. The word says "first place" and not "last place." I can't tell you why (except that perhaps first and last were conceived of identically?).
However, the word/sound-form also can reference the smallest/basest of conceivable substances (atoms) and, in that role, may simply mean "island".
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Hatty wrote: | | the Basque arizonak which means "good oaks." |
Is oak derived from 'ak'? The Basque for oak is given as Aritza. Sounds aristocratic. |
Interesting. A-Ra-Tza. According to my system, it is etymologically identical to A-Ra-D, which comes out as "First Place of the Sun".
The place of the Sun is, of course, the sky (which is how I got Lapus Lazuli as "sky stone"). They call Montana "Big Sky Country" (though its name is literally, Feminine-Zone-land, but means Mountain land). Perhaps Arizona means "Land of the Clear Sky"?
Arizonak could be rendered a number of ways. My system makes it literally:
First-Sun-Zone-Kin
or
First-Sun-Zone-First-Kin
or
First-Sun-Zone-Outside-Kin
possibly...
"First Kindred of the Sky"
"Kindred of the First Place of the Sun"
"Exiled Kindred of the Sky"
Again. I do not stand behind these renderings. Mine is a work in progress and the system can never be perfectly reliable -- especially when working from written words. But it does tend to produce meaningful results to a surprising degree.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| And is there some stone found with that King's name inscribed upon it? Or do they infer the concordance by dating the historical events described in the Bible to the 6th century B.C. and, in parallel, dating the dig to the 6th century B.C.? |
I can't answer this very pertinent question, Ishmael, archaeologists' ways are as mysterious as those of the vanished Babylonians. All I can say is that it was a real thrill to see tablets in the clay, made the name come to life.
It's been called 'the earliest known map' (though I believe another even older map has been found at Catal Hyük in Anatolia) and has been dated 6,200 BC. How this date is reached is beyond me.
As far as I could tell, the earliest 'named' tablet was the one commemorating Cyrus' victory over the Babylonians incorporated into the base of a ziggurat, late sixth century BC (589 BC?)
Babylonian cuneiform. It's a liberating 'I returned their gods to them' spiel.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Ah so! The Basques are the people who spread (and presumably bred) the varieties of Oak that are nowadays found all along the Atlantic seaboard of Europe. Good spot, someone!
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Something about oaks caught my attention: they're toxic to horses -- the tannic acid content causes kidney problems and gastroenteritis -- but no other animal appears to be affected. (Deer for instance are a real nuisance, killing young saplings, by stripping the bark, as well as prize roses, so presumably deer parks don't boast many oaks unless the saplings are protected).
What's also strange is horses' predilection for oak leaves and acorns; animals normally instinctively avoid poisonous items.In a place like Derry which is covered in oaks (its name, Doire, is Irish for oak) and is an area famous for horses, horse-owners have to make sure paddocks are oak-free. Could there be a reason why cultivators of oak trees and horse-breeders were at loggerheads?
[As a rabbit-owner I was told not to feed lettuce to my bunnies as it contains some ingredient that's bad for them; perhaps the Mr. McGregors of yore devised a means of protecting their lettuce crop? Rabbits, like hosses presumably, usually "know" if something disagrees with their digestive systems. Dogs, on t'other hand, swallow everything and anything, maybe due to their long association with us?]
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| Rocky wrote: | | Ishmael wrote: | | I am personally convinced that the Iliad is a work composed just sometime before and around the time of Milton and his Paradise Lost. |
That would be Shakespeare's day, wouldn't it? Are there any unmistakable allusions to the Iliad in any of Shakespeare's works? I tried googling this - it seems to not be the case.
Troilus and Cressida can be traced to a work called Il Filostrato by Giovanni Boccaccio, a friend of Petrarch. Fomenko claims that Petrarch is one of the main concoctors of ancient history. |
So, here is the deal with regard to how much Shakespeare was aware of the Iliad:
| From 1598 George Chapman published his translation of the Iliad in installments. (Shakespeare apparently was able to learn enough about the content of the "Iliad," whether directly from Chapman's translation, or from an acquaintance with what Chapman was working on acquired otherwise, to enable him to put forth "Troilus and Cressida" in 1601-2; that play is remarkable for interweaving the Iliadic story of the deaths of Patroclus and Hector with the quite un-Iliadic story of love betrayed as told first in English by Geoffrey Chaucer in his masterpiece "Troilus and Criseyde.") In 1616 the complete Iliad and Odyssey appeared in The Whole Works of Homer, the first complete English translation. | |
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | My own view is that the Iliad is a set of sailing instructions (poetry is easier to memorise and allows the secret to be hidden). |
I came across a book in the library called Homer's Secret Iliad, and it is about how the Iliad is about astronomical stuff.
The book claims that:
The 'Catalogue of Ships' in Book 2 of the Iliad is not only a roll-call of the forty-five Greek and Trojan regiments but also the foundation of Homer's star and constellation catalogue. Each of the twenty-nice Greek and sixteen Trojan regiments which fought at Troy is identified as a constellation, and the commanders of those units are the brightest stars in the sky.
The star catalogue derived from the Catalogue of Ships bears striking similarities to the Almagest, the listing of stars and constellations by Ptolemy. |
The author also claims that the three effects of precession were woven by Homer into the three principal strands of the Iliad:
- The fall of the city of Troy: allegory for the 'fall' of Ursa Major, the constellation that represents Troy. As the celestial pole moved away from Thuban, so too did Ursa Major begin a slow decline from its pre-eminent position adjacent to celestial north.
- Battles and duels between certain leaders of Greek and Trojan regiments are allegories for the movement of an equinox from one zodiacal constellation to another.
- The return of Achilles to the field of battle is an allegory for the appearance in Greek skies of the star Sirius.
Also, the book claims that certain constellation shapes matched, to a greater or lesser degree, specific geographical areas of Greece and Asia Minor named in the Iliad.
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