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Chad wrote:
"Just to tie the last few posts together and add a seasonal bent, let's not forget the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa."
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Just to tie the last few posts together and add a seasonal bent, let's not forget the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa. |
Santa is a shamanic figure. Believers in his healing powers may have been regarded as heretics, though more likely as misguided simpletons; all the more reason for the church to appropriate the story for children's benefit.
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Chad wrote:
From what I have read, Hatty's shamans wore red and white fur lined coats when they went out to harvest the bright red and white fly agaric mushroom. -- So either Coca-Cola nicked the idea or somebody is talking out of their arse.
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Rocky wrote:
Here's a picture of "The Virgin and Child with St Julian and St Nicholas of Myra - 1490-1492" by Lorenzo di Credi:
http://www.gfmer.ch/Art_for_Health/Images/Italian_Renaissance/Credi_Virgin_Child.jpg
The saints took care when it came to sartorial matters. (On a side note - it makes me wonder - at which point in time would red tights have ceased to be a luxury item?)
Here's a triptych (c. 1311) called "the Crucifixion; the Redeemer with Angels; Saint Nicholas; Saint Gregory" by Duccio di Buoninsegna:
[Deleted because it was fatally widening the page. Sorry, it's the software.]
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admin
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Chad wrote:
No. - Forget all this Christian rubbish. Hatty's shaman fits the bill as Father Christmas in so many ways that any later influences can be nothing more than Christians doing what Christians always did -- adopt and adapt pagan rituals.
-- 1) We have a ceremonial costume which pretty accurately reflects the very thing being celebrated -- the fly-agaric mushroom -- even down to the white beard.
-- 2) We have a location in the frozen north.
--.3) Who else would dream up flying reindeer, if not the shaman of a tribe of reindeer herders high on hallucinogenic substances?
By the way - - has anybody else noticed how often these nomadic reindeer herders crop up in various threads on this site? I'm beginning to think there may be something rather special about these guys!
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| By the way - - has anybody else noticed how often these nomadic reindeer herders crop up in various threads on this site? I'm beginning to think there may be something rather special about these guys! |
I should cocoa. We're all descended from them!
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admin
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Chad wrote:
"This is great news. - - Now I can tell the grandkids not only did Father Christmas actually exist, but they may even be related to him. - - Then all we have to do is get rid of this baby Jesus nonsense and we can have our mid-winter festival back. - - Pass the mushrooms dear. - Sod the turkey!"
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Chad wrote: | | No. - Forget all this Christian rubbish. Hatty's shaman fits the bill as Father Christmas in so many ways that any later influences can be nothing more than Christians doing what Christians always did -- adopt and adapt pagan rituals. |
That Christians "adopted and adapted pagan rituals" is a paradigm by which we choose to make sense of certain odd facts. But it isn't the only way to explain those odd facts. It is, however, the only way of explaining them that academia considers. It always works so why consider anything else?
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admin
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Chad wrote:
Ishmael wrote: | That Christians "adopted and adapted pagan rituals" is a paradigm by which we choose to make sense of certain odd facts. But it isn't the only way to explain those odd facts. It is, however, the only way of explaining them that academia considers. |
I'm sure you're absolutely correct Ishmael. But I can assure you I made this statement from personal observation rather than exposure to any academic paradigm. It's something you may not have too much exposure to in the colonies but in parts of the Mediterranean you can see some highly paganistic looking 'Christian' practices; be they Orthodox, Coptic or Roman.
One example that springs readily to mind was demonstrated on a visit to a Greek Orthodox Monastery. - In the centre of the courtyard stood an ancient tree (an oak, if I remember correctly), from the branches of which hung a number of ropes. - The guide enquired of his audience whether anybody could guess their purpose. - He then explained that they were used to tether the bull.
The lucky beast in question had been selected as a calf the previous year, together with a local child who reigned as 'king' for the year. The two were then paraded through the village and up to the monastery, where the tethering took place. The assembled congregation then prodded and goaded the animal before it was finally, ritually slaughtered and barbecued for the enjoyment of all. - The child escaped "Scott free".
Now if this isn't an ancient pagan ritual adopted by Christians, I am perfectly happy to consider alternative hypotheses. But please don't just make sweeping assumptions and leave enigmatic responses.
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admin
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Chad wrote:
Actually Ish -- if I may be so bold as to address you as such -- please disregard my last post.... It was your enigmatism, amongst other things, that attracted me to this website in the first place.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Applied Epistemology is against all -isms.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Chad wrote: | | I'm sure you're absolutely correct Ishmael. But I can assure you I made this statement from personal observation rather than exposure to any academic paradigm. |
No. This statement did not come exclusively from personal observation. You have interpreted personal observation in accordance with a popular paradigm to which you have been exposed.
Let me prove it to you...
| ...in parts of the Mediterranean you can see some highly paganistic looking 'Christian' practices.... |
In parts of the Mediterranean, I can see some highly christianistic looking "Pagan" practices.
| It was your enigmatism, amongst other things, that attracted me to this website in the first place. |
Typically I drive them away.
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admin
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Bernie Green wrote:
| Ishmael wrote: | | In parts of the Mediterranean, I can see some highly christianistic looking "Pagan" practices. |
Usually I find it very easy to disagree with you, Ishmael. But, when I read the above, I found myself smiling and nodding. I think you are absolutely right and not only in the Mediterranean.
It follows then that we should reappraise Christianity (as it is practised) from top to bottom in the light of that insight.
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admin
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Chad wrote:
| Applied Epistemology is against all -isms. |
I certainly hope that doesn't include alcoholism. Mind you, if it did it would add a whole new relevance to my avatar!
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| There are renditions of santa wearing many different colours of clothing, with green being another popular one. It's all just confused fact and mythology and red came out on top. |
As we've mentioned elsewhere on the subject of popular figures of legend like the Green Man, Robin Hood et al., green has an obvious 'fertility' meaning. Red, on the other hand, maybe due to Christian iconography, took on an element of 'danger' and overt sexuality (as in 'scarlet') almost as if supplanting the ribaldry of green-ness. Prudishness perhaps or a steering away from pagan-style festivities.
As far as I know, shamans don't attach particular meanings to colours. The image of Christ with arms outstretched looking down might go back to an older tradition; isn't the desire to 'fly' one of man's most universal ambitions?
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