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Did The Dark Ages Exist? (NEW CONCEPTS)
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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Wouldn't it be nice if out-moded tools and machines could be used by developing economies? Think of all those computers that get thrown away. With a concerted effort, they could have been collected up and sent to Eastern Europe, say, to accelerate the spread of this technology.

Instead of being discarded here, they could have been used and discarded over there.

In years to come that would mean an absence of PC remains...

The Dark Ages are characterised by an absence of evidence. In some places, not so much as a horseshoe nail is found, even after many years of documented occupation, so I'm told. So the horseshoes and nails must have been assiduously collected and reused.

In a parallel to the hypothetical PC case, couldn't the absence of evidence in the Dark Ages be a sign of a high level of organisation and accelerated roll-out of technology, rather than the complete reverse usually claimed?
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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DPCrisp wrote:
In a parallel to the hypothetical PC case, couldn't the absence of evidence in the Dark Ages be a sign of a high level of organisation and accelerated roll-out of technology, rather than the complete reverse usually claimed?

And can you afford us a single non-Dark-Age example of such an optimal-use economy?

The truth is that in all of these Utopian maximal efficiency scenarios beloved by Marxists, the cost of collection and transport is never factored. Invariably, this proves more expensive than any realizable profit -- those who want old computers are not prepared to pay enough for them to justify the expense of literally giving them away (this is why recycling does not work and never will).

Don't you realize that, if it were possible to clear as profit just one penny on the dollar, shipping old computers to Uganda, someone would already be doing it. It's funny how socialists constantly underestimate the pervasiveness of lust for money.

The second problem though is lack of demand. High-tech equipment, like computers and horseshoes, assume an equally-high-tech infrastructure (whether it's reliable electrical power and a supply of programmers, or whether it's available land for grazing and workers trained in hay-manufacture). Without the infrastructure, the tool is of no use. So you can't ship a product to someone who can't use it.

But the thing is, most of those proverbial horseshoe nails that are found (or not found) at any time in history were never thrown away to begin with. Most of the stuff we find (that wasn't thrown out) was misplaced by its original owner. And no economic system has ever proved capable of finding my matching socks so I assume the same for lost horseshoe nails.

So if it's indeed true that "not so much as a horseshoe nail" is to be found during these specific periods then this does not establish that the Dark Ages were truly dark. It proves the Dark Ages never friken happened!!! It is simply not possible for human beings to stop losing things.

I am convinced that the chronology we have received is completely wrong.

Are you aware that Isaac Newton thought the same thing? Apparently he did.

You really ought to look into historiography with a skeptical eye. You will be horrified to learn just how shaky is the foundation upon which rests our entire understanding of who we are and where we came from. It's all wrong, Dan. It's all wrong.
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Brian Ambrose



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I am convinced that the chronology we have received is completely wrong. Are you aware that Isaac Newton thought the same thing? Apparently he did.

Wow. Hundreds of years of 'Dark Ages' were just inserted into history? How could this happen (did people lose count)? Are equivalent 'dark ages' forced into the chronologies of other cultures in order to synchronize them? What about astronomical data - pre dark ages, how would it be possible to synchronize calculated events with recorded events?

Seems totally barmy! Do tell us more.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Brian Ambrose wrote:
Wow. Hundreds of years of 'Dark Ages' were just inserted into history? How could this happen (did people lose count)?

People didn't keep count -- so there was never anything to lose. The standard chronology was not developed until deep into the Renaissance. And from the day it was first devised to this one...that chronology has never changed.

Now that fact right there ought to tell you straight off that it simply has to be wrong. No self-respecting AEist would expect a couple of Renaissance thinkers to have put together in their first go an accurate and complete history of the world. But that's what we've got.

Are equivalent 'dark ages' forced into the chronologies of other cultures in order to synchronize them?

I haven't done enough reading on this, Brian, but what I have read is disturbing. As I understand it, other cultures were lacking in any proper time counts either so cinching up their histories amounted to plugging their events into the received chronology developed in Italy. That means no possibility of error-checking.

What about astronomical data - pre dark ages, how would it be possible to synchronize calculated events with recorded events?

Now here's where it gets very interesting. I intend to present to you all some of the data I've come across recently. I will eventually get to the chronology stuff but you'll have to be patient.

I am absolutely certain that a paradigm that has remained unchanged since its genesis must be wrong. Therefore, the only thing that is certain is that the timeline we've been taught contains errors -- probably a great many of them -- probably some real whoppers!
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Technically speaking, Brian, it's remarkably easy. Historians use chronology as a scaffolding upon which to build the walls of the house and then they start to furnish the rooms. All historians are room furnishers, none of them are wall-builders, much less scaffolders.

If you ask yourself: "What evidence do we have that this year is 2007 AD?" the answer is...um...some monk in the European Dark Age worked out from some pretty sketchy materials that it was 586 years (or whatever, I forget) since the birth of Christ and the Church apparat flashed the news around the Literate World. Everybody's been operating on this assumption ever since, ie adding a year every year.

Two possibilities:
1. the monk got it wrong.
2. The Church decided that a coupla hundred extra years (or a coupla hundred fewer years) would be convenient for some local purpose of its own.

Historians chortle at this. We'd sure as hell notice if this was the case, they say. No, you'd call the missing years The Dark Ages, we say. This is almost certainly what has happened in the case of the Greek Dark Ages c 1250 to 750 BC but this is extensively discussed elsewhere.
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Brian Ambrose



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Yes, I can definitely see how you can make a case. But the most obvious objection is the astronomical one. If the accepted but allegedly dubious history records that 1800 years ago a monk saw Venus in conjunction with Jupiter, or whatever, and we run skyatnight (whatever it's called) software which is based on calculation, and it turns up that exact same conjunction 1800 years ago, is that not absolute confirmation that our dates are correct? As far as I am aware there are many such historical references to astronomical events.

Still, the idea has its attractions, not least because I'm surprised to find that other cultures also have their own 'dark ages', at about the same period. Very suspicious.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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This notion of using astronomical backchecking to forge a timeline has an interesting history. It was first used by Egyptologists who came up with the wheeze (though it rapidly became a dogma) that there was an error in the Egyptian calendar (based on some star sight, I forget the details) that meant it took 1800 years to come back to true. Hence, the Egyptologists claimed, they could give every year a true date by observing at what stage the error had reached. (The Egyptians kindly recorded their observations year by year.)

Hugs and backslaps all round until Flinders Petrie, the most senior Egyptologist of the time, observed that actually Egyptian history would probably work better if everyone worked with the previous 1800-year cycle! Yup, that's how bad Egyptology was in them thar days, there was doubt as to when it all happened on an 1800-year scale.

Things have improved though. Now they're about six hundred years out. Velikovsky (and his modern day followers) have all the details. In my opinion, their work is unanswerable. Which is more than you can say for a lot of Velikovsky's theories. What a fruitcake. What an inspired fruitcake.
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TelMiles


In: London
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I don't think I'm picking this point up Mick. I can see how (maybe) a sizeable gap can be inserted into ancient history, but surely our own Dark Ages (have you heard they want to rebrand it as "the age of late antiquity?") are too 'recent' for such an addition? If the dark ages were created, then what do you think happened? Or am I missing something?
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Mick Harper
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The evidence for the gap in the Eastern Med from c 1300BC to 700BC is very good. There is a whole hive of Velikovsky scholars churning out stuff.

As far as I know nobody is applying the same principle to the European Dark Ages (there was a Russian bloke I seem to remember....anyone got the details?). We are just kicking it around because
a) there is an amazing lack of anything for several centuries (for instance, pottery disappears from Britain...would you adam-and-eve it)
b) the dating techniques -- both ancient and modern -- make it possible.
I don't think we've got much farther than that.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Mick Harper wrote:
As far as I know nobody is applying the same principle to the European Dark Ages (there was a Russian bloke I seem to remember....anyone got the details?).

Yes. I've got details on the Russian Bloke. I'm going to present said details in good time.

Tel.

Of our group, I believe I am the only one who would characterize himself as a "strong suspecter" that the European Dark Ages never happened. I'm not a believer mind you. If I was absolutely forced to guess, I'd put my money on the notion that the European Dark Ages never happened (well...my best guess is that they did happen but occurred in parallel with what we know as Roman History).

In fact, I'm prepared to be somewhat more radical. With respect to chronology, I entertain notions of far more dramatic (and disconcerting) possibility. But I rarely talk about them. It garners too many side-ways glances.

BTW Tel...you should get yourself an Avatar, if you plan to stick around.
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TelMiles


In: London
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can I choose my own avatar???
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Mick Harper
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But remember what happened to William Tell's son...oh, you believe the orthodox version...oh right...fair enough then.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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TelMiles wrote:
can I choose my own avatar???

Of course. But you're stuck with this one until you do.
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TelMiles


In: London
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Mick Harper wrote:
But remember what happened to William Tell's son...oh, you believe the orthodox version...oh right...fair enough then.

I thought it was William of Cloudlesslee's son.

Also, I have no idea what happened to William Tell's son...so pray tell. (It's a legend I'm not that familiar with)
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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The Swiss version is that W Tell hit the apple and missed the boy but the Austrians say, "And do we ever hear about the boy again? I think not."

Ishmael says, "This whole story refers to William Rufus not William Tell."
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