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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Could there be any connection with 'gilgul' which Wireloop tells us means reincarnation?
| Hence hanging from oaks - Gallows. Which is another way of killing on 'Hallowed' ground. They were not just executing, they were sending the soul on its next part of its journey, we would consider this reincarnation. They would say another go round the merry-go-round. |
Maybe the oak being the tallest tree in the wood and consequently having deep roots symbolised the upper and lower regions, hence the 'hanging' association? There's a legend that Odin stabbed an oak tree with his magical sword and declared that whoever removed the sword would be destined to win in battle, which has an Arthurian flavour to it. (According to a tree expert on TV, the Scots pine is the oldest native tree in the British Isles, I rather assumed it was the oak.)
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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You mean, as in Golgotha. Curiously a word that links the Gauls and the Goths.But more seriously
And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
-- Deuteronomy 21: 22-23
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,"
-- Galatians 3:13
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Just came across this info:
| Some dude on a message board wrote: Point of interest is that its traditional to have firworks on Diwali, a Hindu and sikh Festival (Festival of Lights) and this is normally very close to Bonfire Night, ie this year it's on 12 November....http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=262033 | |
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Yes, Diwali is the Festival of Lights, lighting up the "dark half" of the year. Do they also light bonfires though?
There's a reference to the medieval Green Man and fireworks or flaming torches in 1635, maybe the author was one of the seventeenth century's myth-makers: John Bate's The Mysteries of Nature and Art (1635) (The "Second Booke:" Teaching most plainly, and withall most exactly, the composing of all manner of Fire-works for Tryumph and Recreation.)
"In early seventeenth-century England figures known as 'wild men' or 'green men', also had the task of maintaining order. Strewing fire from large clubs, they cleared the way for certain festive processions. The 'wild men', 'very ugly to behold' are described as having black beards and black hair, with garlands on their heads, and wearing costumes of green ivy.
One finds further associations of the 'wild man' with pyrotechnics in Western Europe in John Bate's The Mysteries of Nature and Art (in part a fireworks manual), published in London in 1635, which shows on the title page the traditional figure brandishing a 'fire-club', and again in a Danish engraving, probably of the seventeenth century, portraying several bearded men dressed in loincloths of flowers and wielding flaming sticks. |
Very pre-Christian.
As for "guy", this is an unusual angle:
| From the mid-13th century onwards the word "guy" was used to mean a dummy or effigy. "Guy" in turn was derived from the Anglo-Norman word "guyser" describing the stooge in medieval comedies, hence our well known word "geezer". |
Anglo-Norman? (Burning an effigy doesn't seem to be part of traditional religious ceremonies, unless it was part of some voodoo type ritual?)
Came across a name which is uncannily like Guy Fawkes:
| Pope Clement IV (Saint-Gilles-du-Gard, November 23, year uncertain -- November 29, 1268 in Viterbo), born Gui Faucoi le Gros (English: Guy Foulques the Fat; Italian: Guido le Gros |
In the south-east bonfire societies predominate but in the south-west the emphasis seems to be on fireworks and "illuminations". Fireworks or fire crackers were used by the Chinese, the inventors of gunpowder, which was introduced in England at the end of the thirteenth century:
The earliest recorded use of gunpowder in England, and probably the western world, is by the Franciscan monk Roger Bacon. He was born in Ilminster in Somerset in 1214 and lived, as a master of languages, maths, optics and alchemy to 1294. He recorded his experiments with a mixture which was very inadequate by today's standards but was recognisable as gunpowder. His formula was very low in saltpetre because there was no natural source available, but it contained the other two essential ingredients: charcoal and sulphur.
In 1242 he wrote: "...if you light it you will get thunder and lightening if you know the trick" |
Bacon wrote to Guy Foulques le Gros, then a cardinal, who became interested in his ideas and asked him to write a comprehensive treatise which Bacon did, in secret, as the Franciscan order prohibited publishing works without special permission. His Opus Majus was a treatise on science (grammar, logic, mathematics, physics and philosophy) but after the death of Pope Clement he was imprisoned by the Franciscan order, accused of witchcraft.
Roger Bacon is considered by some to be the author of the Voynich Manuscript, because of his studies in the fields of alchemy, astrology, and languages. Bacon is also the ascribed author of the alchemical manual Speculum Alchemiae, which was translated into English as The Mirror of Alchimy in 1597. (Voynich MS is an illustrated book, completely incomprehensible apparently, which has been exhaustively studied by crytographers)
So there exists a link between Guy Fawkes (Guy Foulques) and gunpowder via Roger Bacon, man of science, philosopher and alchemist.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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The townspeople of Lewes have got a new baddy for this year's bonfire night, they're going to burn an effigy of the Green King - named after a local pub (dispute over beer) called The Greene King. Still quite traditional though.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I have tried for years, and over various forums, to get people interested in pubs and pub names. This is because of the Great Antiquity of these. (Or not -- many London buses have destinations marked up as, for instance, DULWICH The Plough when the pub in question is now, thanks to an exercise in rebranding, The Slug & Lettuce.)
On the Ansaxnet, where naturally everybody present supposed that British inns were a Roman innovation because that's the first time they turn up 'in the historical record', I pointed out that nobody except nutters and child molesters drinks on his own and that therefore the invention of alcohol must be covalent to the invention of the pub. I tried to get them to see that the pub and the village also must, for economic and social reasons, go hand in hand but since they all believe that the English population were living in wassail halls or dispersed Celtic homesteads at the time this didn't play very well either.
I think Dan and I tried to get GHMB interested in the meaning of the Green Man, the White Horse, the King's Head, the Seven Stars and all the other ubiquitously traditional pub names but I don't think we got very far.
Green(e) King might be significant. I assume, since I used to drink Greene King IPA (Indian Pale Ale, invented in Burton for export to Brits ruling India, though technically not an 'ale' which is beer minus the hops), that this is a mainly commercial dispute, but the Green King is an interesting character.
He is presumably the Green Man, the bloke with verbiage literally coming out of his mouth. Although he is supposed (including by me) to be of ancient lineage, he actually bursts on the scene in a big way when he starts appearing in great numbers (though mainly tucked away) in the astonishing and mysterious Gothic cathedrals of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. This is also the period when some highly redolent pub names come into existence eg The Trip To Jerusalem and the Saracen's Head. So it may be that the itinerant "masons" responsible for the cathedrals may have had their own carefully signalled hostelries.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| The townspeople of Lewes have got a new baddy for this year's bonfire night, they're going to burn an effigy of the Green King - named after a local pub (dispute over beer) called The Greene King. Still quite traditional though. |
Is this our explanation for the linkage of an ancient Pagan Festival with the Gun Powder Plot? Might it be that every year, effigies of various 'baddies' were burned on November 5th but that the Gun Powder Plot inspired a large number of locales to adopt Guido Fawkes as their 'baddie' in 1605/1606. Because this period was one in which mass communication and centralization was uniting Britain as never before, this widespread local adoption became a national tradition: instead of various local 'baddies', everyone started burning Guido Fawkes.
I suspect even that the 'baddies' being burned were always dubbed with the moniker 'Guy' combined with their designated name. If some 'god' or legendary figure was being burned, then that figure's name was appended to the prefix 'Guy', because it was his effigy, or 'guy', that was actually being burned. Let's say the local 'baddie' figure was Mordred, then his effigy would be referred to as 'Guy Mordred'. So it was with Fawkes. His name was appended to the prefix 'guy' and thus Guido Fawkes became 'Guy Fawkes'.
That is the simple explanation.
But there sure are a lot of tantalizing leads in your material to suggest that there's still more to the story!
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| The best way to do this was thru the sacred door to the 'other realm' - the Oak. |
Yes, we made the specific connection (somewhere round here) that tree (specifically oak) = door, didn't we?
| All Hallows Eve is where the underworld (the state of being non-living) is thinnest. |
The New Year: a time between times.
| His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; |
It's not specifically because of the Sabbath, then, that they had to get Jesus laid to rest sharpish.
| For it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree," |
That could mean "it is the cursed who get hanged on trees": it is the first-born who is put to death to liberate the soul as the second-born. It could also mean "everyone cursed hangs on a tree", i.e. Jesus' death is redemption for everyone.
| There's a legend that Odin stabbed an oak tree with his magical sword and declared that whoever removed the sword would be destined to win in battle, which has an Arthurian flavour to it. |
Interesting. For Odin, the tree represents wisdom (and his sacrifice to get it), so obtaining the sword and winning with it is about god-given wisdom, just as with the sword-and-the-stone. The oak represents Zeus, too, master lightning: elemental forces and fire shall we say? Again, drawing the sword form the stone is a process of mastering fire and natural forces. (All very Wiccan.)
| According to a tree expert on TV, the Scots pine is the oldest native tree in the British isles, I rather assumed it was the oak. |
Orthodox Ice Age theory no doubt says the conifers follow hard on the heels of the retreating ice. Deciduous trees (beech and birch, mainly?) keep a little distance.
{Beech is said to mean 'edible oak', probably more like 'edible tree'. Birch is supposed to mean 'gleaming white', referring to silver birch bark; while betula is supposed to mean bitumen, referring to the tar that oozes through the birch bark. Take your pick.}
| The 'wild men', 'very ugly to behold' are described as having black beards and black hair, with garlands on their heads, and wearing costumes of green ivy. |
Sounds like Black Irish... trolls... tree-hugging hippie Druids.
...and again in a Danish engraving...
James seems to have acquired his anti-witchcraft zeal after an extended stay in Denmark when he went to collect wife, innit?
| ...probably of the seventeenth century, portraying several bearded men dressed in loincloths of flowers and wielding flaming sticks. |
NB. In my theory, Denmark was Celtic for a time, too.
| Came across a name which is uncannily like Guy Fawkes: |
There are a few Foulques, Fulks, etc. to follow up.
| after the death of Pope Clement [ Bacon ] was imprisoned by the Franciscan order, accused of witchcraft. |
So Guy Foulques was less uptight, if not pro-witchcraft. Any evidence of Guy Fawkes being an admirer of Clement IV or Roger Bacon?
| Bacon is also the ascribed author of the alchemical manual Speculum Alchemiae, which was translated into English as The Mirror of Alchimy in 1597. |
Sufficient interest in alchemy to make an English translation in the era of Dee, Shakespeare, etc. just before 1605, eh?
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| From the mid-13th century onwards the word "guy" was used to mean a dummy or effigy. "Guy" in turn was derived from the Anglo-Norman word "guyser" describing the stooge in medieval comedies, hence our well known word "geezer". |
Etymonline:
geezer: 1885, variant of obs. Cockney guiser "mummer" (see guise).
(Guy meaning bloke is supposed to come from Guy Fawkes.)
guise: c.1275, from O.Fr. guise, from Frank. *wisa (cf. O.H.G. wisa "manner, wise").
wise = witch, wicca
Get this lot from Wikipedia:
Mummers Play
There are two major branches to the tradition of the Mummers' Play (also known as mumming, and by various other regional names): firstly, the folk tradition of troupes of mummers performing theatre, sometimes in the street but more usually as house-to-house visits and in public houses; secondly, the more formal Christian Mystery plays. No firm conclusions have been come to regarding the etymology of the word "mummer". It is usually believed to have originated from the Middle English word mum which means "silent" (suggesting that the plays were originally silent pantomimes), though some people have suggested a connection with mommo, the Greek word for "mask", or mumme, the Danish word for "mask". Other possible relationships exist with the words "murmur" and "mutter". |
Mummers' and Guisers' Plays
Mummers' and guisers' plays were formerly performed throughout most of Great Britain and Ireland, as well as in other English-speaking parts of the world...
Although usually broadly comic performances, the plays seem to be based on underlying themes of duality and resurrection and generally involve a battle between two or more characters, perhaps representing good against evil. Usually they feature a doctor who has a magic potion which is able to resuscitate a slain character...
The name of the hero is most commonly Saint George, King George, or Prince George. His principal opponents are the Turkish Knight (in southern England and Turkish Champion in Ireland), or a valiant soldier named Slasher (elsewhere). Other characters include: Old Father Christmas (who introduces some plays), Beelzebub, Little Devil Doubt (who demands money from the audience), Robin Hood (an alternative hero in the Cotswolds), Galoshin (a hero in Scotland), etc. Despite the frequent presence of Saint George, the Dragon rarely appears in these plays...
Occasionally, the performers will wear face-obscuring hats or other kinds of headgear, which create the impression of being masked. More often, mummers' faces are blackened or painted red by way of disguise.. |
Local seasonal variants
Although the main season for mumming throughout Britain was around Christmas, some parts of England had plays performed around All Souls' Day (known as Souling or soul-caking) or Easter (Pace-egging)...
In some parts of Britain and Ireland, the plays are traditionally performed on or near Plough Monday and are therefore known as Plough Plays. The performers were known by various names, according to area, such as Plough-jags, Plough-jacks, Plough-bullocks, Plough-stots or Plough witches... Tradition has it that plough boys would take their plays from house to house and perform in exchange for money or gifts, in a similar way to the American custom -- i.e. formerly an English or Irish custom -- of Trick-or-treat; some teams pulled a plough and threatened to plough up people's front gardens or path if they did not pay up. Examples of the play have been found in Denmark since the late 1940s. |
Christian Mystery Plays
There is no solid evidence to link mummers' plays with Christian Mystery Plays. In England, mystery plays were largely suppressed in the 1530s. The earliest evidence of English mummers plays comes in the eighteenth century. There is however one tantalising early possible citation of mumming. The painting by Pieter Brueghel called "The Battle of Carnival and Lent" shows a very crowded village scene. In the top left is a group of people in strange costume. One of them appears to be a so-called Green Man or "Wild Man" carrying a club, and one carries a sword. One is a woman - or possibly a man dressed as a woman. They appear to be performing at the door of a house... |
Other kinds of Mummers
The province of Newfoundland and Labrador, in Canada, has a two-hundred-year long tradition of Mummering or Janneying between Christmas and January 6 (Twelfth Day). In complete disguise the Mummers go from house to house to entertain and socialize. Often men dress as outsized women, but no one is supposed to be recognizable. | |
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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DPCrisp wrote:
guise: c.1275, from O.Fr. guise, from Frank. *wisa (cf. O.H.G. wisa "manner, wise").
wise = witch, wicca
If guise = wuise = wise then a disguise is actually a dis-wise. And that makes perfect sense. A dis-wise is something one dons to "fool" others, or to "dis-wise" others.
And if Guy then is a word for wise, then Guy Fawkes is...
...the wise fox.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Ishmael wrote:
| I suspect even that the 'baddies' being burned were always dubbed with the moniker 'Guy' combined with their designated name. |
That's an interesting thought. So effigy could be 'fire-guy'.
Dan wrote:
| The oak represents Zeus, too, master lightning: elemental forces and fire shall we say? |
Are oak trees particularly prone to lightning, perhaps due to being taller than most of the trees around? Forked lightning, Fawkes sounds like forks, serpent's forked tongue. Wonder if the apple in the Garden of Eden was an oak-apple.
| So Guy Foulques was less uptight, if not pro-witchcraft. |
He sounds like he was very open-minded. Roger Bacon, an advocate of empirical observation, was probably imprisoned on account of his criticism of ignorance and immorality among the clergy rather than for 'witchcraft'. Guy Fawkes may well have come across Bacon as there were plays about him.
| Many writers of earlier times have been attracted to Roger Bacon as the epitome of a wise and subtle possessor of forbidden knowledge, similar to Faustus. A succession of legends and unverifiable stories has grown up about him, for example, that he created a brazen talking head which could answer any question. This has a central role in the play Friar Bacon and Friar Bungay written by Robert Greene in about 1589. | |
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Dan wrote: | Any evidence of Guy Fawkes being an admirer of Clement IV or Roger Bacon? |
Despite obstacles such as being prohibited from publishing works and being imprisoned for fourteen years, Bacon managed to write a lot of tracts and scientific papers. Can't say how many, but printing was getting into its stride in the seventeenth century as we've seen, for example
| Speculum Alchimiae (1541), translated into English (1597); (2) De Mirabili Potestate Artis et Naturae (1542), English translation (1659); (3) Libellus de Retardandis Senectutis Accidentibus (1590), translated as the "Cure of Old Age", by Richard Brown (London, 1683); (4) Sanioris Medicinae Magistri D. Rogeri Baconis Anglici de Arte Chymiae Scripta (Frankfort, 1603) |
so at least some of his writings were available to those interested and doubtless found their way into the considerable libraries belonging to certain members of the professional middling classes. Apparently Bacon was nicknamed 'Dr. Mirabilis' posthumously, which would suggest that his De Mirabili was relatively popular. Some of his works, mainly on alchemy, have disappeared, whether because they were considered unimportant or dangerous I don't know.
However it's safe to say that his works would have been known and read, whether by Guy Fawkes or not is debatable but I'd guess he was very likely to have known about the putative inventor of gunpowder given his interest in the subject. (Bacon was credited with the invention of gunpowder on the basis of a passage in De Mirabili Potestate Artis et Naturae but it was of course the Chinese who invented it.)
| It is, however, with the Opus Majus that Bacon's real activity begins. It has been called by Whewell at once the Encyclopaedia and the Organum of the 13th century. |
As a curious aside, Sir Francis Bacon (Lord Chancellor 1618-21) seems to have had a lot of interests in common with Roger Bacon.
Clement IV does seem to have been more than willing to broaden horizons literally and metaphorically and had dealings with Marco Polo whose travels to China appear to have received papal support before Clement died.
| In the last half of the 13th century and first half of the 14th Asia was thrown open to Western travellers to a degree unknown before and since, until the 19th century. Thus began the medieval period of intercourse between China and catholic Europe...... |
Can't say if Fawkes was an "admirer" of Clement IV but he was one of the more enlightened popes though his reign lasted less than four years and Fawkes, in view of his Catholic background, may well have been aware that he was Roger Bacon's benefactor and patron.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Not sure how significant it is but Clement IV was born in Saint-Gilles, Gard in the Languedoc-Roussillon province, just north of the Pyrenees, part of the Provence-Forcalquier region. The history of Provence-Forcalquier is a complex power struggle, much like the papacy itself. Fairly unusual to have a French pope (Silvester II, 999-1003, was the first French pope), the vast majority being Italian-born, but Clement IV's predecessor, Urban IV, (born Jacques Pantaleon) was from Troyes.
Clement IV's surname, Foulques in English, is Faucoi in French - fau is almost the same as faux (silent 'x') which means 'false', coi is similar to croix, another silent 'x', which means cross - but 'false cross' isn't very appropriate in a papal context, though it seems to me he was a bit of an anomaly anyway.
Going back to 'fox', I'm not sure if it's connected to foix ('faith'), spelt foi in modern French but faux sounds exactly like 'foe' in English.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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Curious. Falkes De Breauté owned the Manor of Luton and a house in London: Falkes' Hall, hence Vauxhall, as in Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens (hence 'Vauxhall' being Russian for a large train station, apparently). Vauxhall Motors started in London and took its griffin logo from De Breauté's coat of arms. It's sheer coincidence that they moved their plant to Luton, the other home of Falkes de Breauté and the griffin.
More curious: Falkes De Breauté was awarded the Manor of Luton for his service to King John, as his head mercenary.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Curious. Falkes De Breauté owned the Manor of Luton and a house in London: Falkes' Hall, hence Vauxhall, as in Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens |
That is fascinating. Could there be a connection between a French mercenary who in return for his services to King John was given land and an heiress and our Guy Fawkes? The Luton connection is also interesting, apparently in the sixteenth century the town was known for brick making and hat making, especially the manufacture of straw hats.
There was an Edward Vaux (4th Baron Vaux) (1588-1661) who married Elizabeth Howard and we all know the Howards were one of the leading Catholic families. And there was a William Vaux who married Mary Tresham whose mother was Eleanor Catesby...all names familiar from the list of plotters.
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