The Plough (Linguistics)

[nemesis8]

Fascinating....I am checking out to see whether the Celeste Star is part of a asterism or constellation.

[Donmillion]

BOLLOCKS right back.

Two Poms in a boat, one of them rowing, the other not. The non-rower says, "I'll take a spell now," meaning "I'll start rowing for a while, and you can rest."

Two Kiwis in a boat, one rowing, the other not. The non-rower says, "You can take a spell now," meaning "You can stop rowing and have a rest for a while."

In NZ usage, "to take a spell" (without qualification) is always taken to mean, "take a rest," not "undertake an activity".

And yes, you're right--in both cases "spell" simply means " a period of time"; but there is an exact reversal in the meaning of how that time is spent: in England, doing something while someone else rests; in New Zealand, resting while someone else does something.

But here's another example. I've worked in Milton Keynes a couple of times (The City That Has No Soul). The railway station is in a road called "Elder Gate", one of several roads in the town that are called "[X] Gate".(Saxon Gate, Secklow Gate ...).

But hang on--a "gate" is a sort of door that blocks progress. How on earth can a road be a gate? And why are the chalk valleys that lead down to the sea at Margate and Ramsgate also "gates"? I saw no gates when I visited them!

Answer: Oldest recorded meaning of "gate" is an opening or "gap" (may be a related word) that provides access. It's only later that the word came to mean a barrier that prevents access.

So there's an example of reversal of meaning in English: "gate" used to mean "open accessway", but now most commonly means "barrier preventing open access."

[Chad]

[Donmillion]

There's none so blind as the ignorant.

There is a clear difference in the way the word "spell" (in the context used) is understood in the two cultures, and those understandings are directly opposite. In England, you take a spell at an activity while working on it; in New Zealand, I take a spell at an activity while resting from it.

Go to NZ and use it the English way, and they'll understand you 'cos they're used to stupid UK immigrants getting it wrong. After a while, you'll fit in and start using it their way.

Use it the Kiwi way over here, and you'll get puzzled looks and outright misunderstanding.

Try it. Engage with someone else in a strenuous activity that you take turns at, like sheep-shearing with only one pair of shears, if that's the sort of thing Ramsbottom people do (I can be ignorant, too). While your partner is sweating and grunting over a recalcitrant ewe, say, "I think you need a spell, mate!" and see if he understands you. (Oh-oh, bad example, if he's a shearer, there's a good chance he's a Kiwi.)

Of course it's "the unspoken (but taken as read) portion that is ... different". That's one of the most glaringly obvious comments I've read here! You've just described the difference between a word and its meaning--as with all the different meanings of "char" (which won me a competition several years ago) ...

And what's the "technology" of a natural pathway down through chalk cliffs to the sea?

Being under time pressure, let's grope for a different example of reversal of meaning--well, close to one: "awful" hasn't meant "filling with reverantial wonder", "sublimely majestic", for about 100 years. About 100 years before that, a virtually opposite meaning arose in colloquial use, "appallingly bad", which has now completely replaced the original meaning. I think "mistress" could be seen as another word that's effectively reversed its meaning since Shakespeare's time.

The original example was a reversal of meaning between two languages. For my final example, consider the respective meanings of deva and asura in Hindu religion, and divs and ahura in Persian religion. (And now, back to work.)

[Mick Harper]

Fair enough but could you just go back to 'cognate'....I'm still not clear on that.

[Donmillion]

I used to be ...

[Ishmael]

[Chad]

[Ishmael]

[Donmillion]

[P ~ F] (my recently-invented convention for "P might be substituted with F in some contexts").

You're fulling my flonker, Chad! (Or is it your own?)

Yes I do think it's changed its meaning. If you think that "spell" means only "a period of time", then presumably you also think that "examination" only means "looking at something", and doesn't also mean "a formal test of someone's knowledge or capability". Words can have more than one meaning, and until someone comes up with a definition based on them, it's from context and usage (that "unspoken (but taken as read) portion") that we have to decide what the meaning is.

I've learnt about this "alleged" difference in meaning by direct culurual experience--no need for dictionaries. But I'm gonna quote the NSOED at ya (despite your objection to dictionaries), just to demonstrate that I'm not making this up. (I looked it up first, in case it didn't support my case ...) In historical order of written record:

1 A set of workers taking a turn of work to relieve others; a relay, a shift. Now rare. L16.
2 A turn of work taken by one person or group to relieve another. E17.
3 A continuous period, bout, or turn of an occupation or activity. (Foll. by of, at.) E18.
3b An interval or period of repose or relaxation, a rest from work etc. Now dial. & Austral & N.Z.. L18.

Interestingly, according to the NSOED editors, "spell" in the sense of "a period of time" isn't recorded earlier than the early 18th century:

4 A period or space of time, esp. of a short or fairly short duration; (w. specifying wd) a period having a certain character or spent in a particular way; spec. a continuous period or stretch of a specified kind of weather. E18.

Note the sudden shift between meanings (1), (2), and (3), on the one hand, and (3b) on the other: from "a turn of work" to "an interval of rest from work". You can deny that that's a reversal of meaning if you like; and I'll alter my rude retort to the blindness of those that will not see.

With regard to Ishmael's comments (quite good ones, actually): It really is the word "spell" that has developed opposed meanings, not "take". This can be seen in the use of the verb (now mostly lost in UK English, but still current in The Colonies):

spell. vb.
1. Take the place of or relieve (a person) in a task or undertaking. Now chiefly N. Amer. L16.
2. Take a turn or turns of work at (esp. a pump). M18.
3. Take a brief rest. Chiefly Austral & N.Z. L19.

Is "Take a turn of work" the same thing as "take a brief rest"? Is "white" the same as "black"?

End of story, on my part.

[Chad]

[Donmillion]

Now that I've tied it back to the word, both noun and verb, its relevance seems to have become squat diddly.
_________________
-- Don

"Eveything is deeply intertwingled" (thankyou, Danny Faught)

[Donmillion]

I forgot to comment: No wonder Chad wants me to throw away my dictionaries!

[Chad]

[Donmillion]

Hmmm. No comments on "spell"?

(I was intrigued to find that the "period of time" meaning, which I'd taken to be primary, seems to be secondary. Of course, it might have been there all along, but no known attestations from L16, for the "group of workers doing a shift" meaning, to E18 for the "period of time" meaning--say 150 years--is a long time for a meaning to go unrecorded.)

And I don't need redemption, thank you very much. My observations on "spell" were not taken from dictionaries or other works of fiction, but from direct personal experience which (I bet) you, Chad, and you, Ishmael, have not shared. Shame on you both for making me resort to authority because you preferred your own inexperience and ignorance to my experience and direct knowledge.