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Flying Chaucers (Linguistics)
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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God I wish you wouldn't resurect this old argument of mine. I find it all so embarrasing now -- considering how thoroughly Dan mopped the floor with me. It was always a crazy idea. I have too many of those.
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Pulp History


In: Wales
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I like to think of the Great Vowel Shift in terms of a consonant shift...... just as Abona can be read Avona = Avon (the river in Somerset) B=V........

This gives us the Great Bowel Shift, and both give us the same result - a load of shytte ...... (pronounced sh-eye-tt!!)
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AJMorton



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DPCrisp wrote:
If he wants a word pronounced differently, he can spell it differently.

Then he is the greatest master of the written word there has ever been, because no one before or since has been able to do this. (Although since language is not a solitary exercise, there would have to have been others...)


This is spot on, DP. All too often during study the pronunciation of a written word is mistakenly changed just because it is spelt differently.

In Scots, the word 'heid' ('head' in Eng.) is and probably always was pronounced 'heed'. The 'ei' does not indicate that the spoken 'heed' was suddenly pronounced 'hee-id'.

Maps are an excellent example of this. My favourite 16th and 17th maps chart several villages and landmarks in my home district. But the spelling is erratic and inconsistent. Some maps (and documents now that I think of it) give various spellings for one town on the one page and by the same hand. The priority of the cartographer was that his viewers would be able to read and understand the map. Therefore there was little emphasis on standard spelling because the pronunciation of each new warped word never altered.

If I lived before Johnson got his hands dirty, I would not expect my cartographer to presume I would suddenly pronounce the names of my favourite villages according to his scribbles of curious calligraphy (some maps are just that - rough masters).

In the case of the town of Ayr (pronounced Air), some maps use Ayre (which would apparently be pronounced Air-Ee). But others printed at the same time, or shortly before, or shortly after, would use Air or Ayr, indicating that the pronunciation of a landmark was paramount with spelling running a close second.

The pronunciation of Edinburgh (Ed-In-Bu-Ra/Ru) outside Britain is quite inaccurate (often pronounced Ed-In-Bu-Row or Ed-In-Burg). In this case, the written word undoubtedly changed the pronunciation over-seas. It did not change the pronunciation back home.

If in doubt as to the effect the Edinburgh Problem had on pronunciation (it may be an introduction of a previously unknown word - if so it is not 'change' but 'innovation & introduction) look at the USA and it's British immigrants whose ancestors knew fine well how Edinburgh was pronounced. The fact that their descendants now pronounce it Ed-In-Bu-Row or Ed-In-Burg indicates that the actual pronunciation was changed there.

But not in Scotland.

I'm blathering (Scot. pronounced Ble-Th-Er-In).

Good thread(s) these.


Greetings Wilhelm Wallais (Pronounced Will-Yam Woll-Ass/Iss and not Vill-Helm Wall-Aiz) my green Celtic colleague (Pulp).
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Edinburgh has another claim to fame. For trillions of years the whole Place-Name Industry confidently asserted that the name meant Edwin's Burg, ie a town founded by the Anglo-Saxon Edwin. When belatedly it was discovered that it was far older this was...er...no longer asserted. However I would be quite interested in more etymological details.

PS That means our two fair capitals have been made a bog of by the PNI. God knows what it does with less well known places.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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I just want it to be known that I disavow everything said in this thread by that "Ishmael" character. What an idjut that guy is.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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This gives us the Great Bowel Shift, and both give us the same result - a load of shytte

Pulpy, we are as one: I've got the copyright on "The Great Vowel Movement".

In Scots, the word 'heid' ('head' in Eng.) is and probably always was pronounced 'heed'.

How long has it been true that some Scots have said "hed", which we might spell h-e-i-d just as well as h-e-a-d?

The priority of the cartographer was that his viewers would be able to read and understand the map. Therefore there was little emphasis on standard spelling because the pronunciation of each new warped word never altered.

The readers had as much of a job to read as the writers had to write... and they could surely be forgiven for wondering whether something different was meant when something different was spelled (notsamuch with maps)... but that is simply the reason for standardisation to occur some time after literacy starts getting widespread.

The pronunciation of Edinburgh (Ed-In-Bu-Ra/Ru) outside Britain is quite inaccurate (often pronounced Ed-In-Bu-Row or Ed-In-Burg). In this case, the written word undoubtedly changed the pronunciation over-seas. It did not change the pronunciation back home.

The written word (in effect) introduced the pronunciation over-seas.

Does it necessarily follow that inhabitants of Edinburgh get the final say on the 'correct' pronunciation? Burgh, burg, borough, bury are, after all, the same word. Is there really any advance on "this is how we say it..."?

Home Counties rural accents have been overrun by London overspill accents, so is it still correct to say Houghton is "hoe-t'n" or "who-t'n" not "how-t'n"? (They all agree to make nothing of the second O.) Is Shrewsbury "shrews-brie" or "Sh'rose-brie"? Shrew is shrew, but shew is show. (Took me a while to read it right... although, round here, they'd have said "shoo"!).

Pronounced Will-Yam Woll-Ass/Iss

Mac, do you not frequently pronounce the L as a W, as Cockneys and others do? Or is that in other Scottish dialects? Not so easy to write that pronunciation down, though, eh?
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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How long has it been true that some Scots have said "hed", which we might spell h-e-i-d just as well as h-e-a-d?

Surely it's the other way round? The original word for the thing on our necks is heed because, as you know, ee is usually spelled ea in Written English (the rule, I think, is adding any vowel makes it the long version). But later on the Inglis upper classes, who liked clipped speech to emphasise their cultural distinction from the Mummerset drawlers, slowly shifted it round to hed.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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I have no idea, Mick. EA is long or short.

Mac said heid could be "heed" just as well as something else (with 2 syllables -- is that what they really say it says?) and I say it could also just as well be "hed", which is said in the same streets alongside "heed". Nowadays.

I have no idea how far back nowadays goes. "Hed" might have been first: the spelling won't tell us.
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Pulp History


In: Wales
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Surely the whole point is that for ANY pronunciation of a word, based on a standardised spelling, we can today find ANY form we want to in the regional accents...... so what accent were the originals written in? Surely not the same one all over Britain - a writer in Somerset would spell what he heard and likewise for a writer in the north or south east.

Head or Heid COULD be pronounced 'hayd', 'heed', 'hed', 'ed', 'had', etcetera - which came first?? who knows.

The point is that for any alleged vowel shifted pronunciation, you could still find someone who pronounces it that way today.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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No, we have to have the courage of our convictions. If head was pronounced head when they started writing the word down, they would have simply written it hed. Why on earth would they not? The whole point about compound vowels is that they are used to express something other than the straightforward a, e i, o, u short sounds. There are two ways of doing this, sticking them together (meet, meat, moat) or putting an e after the consonant (mate, mite, mote). (Three ways: might...no that used to be pronounce as in macht of course.) .But met, mat, mit shall always be just plain met, mat and mit. (Someone look up the etymology of matte, motte, mutt.)

It is true that some words appear to have changed their pronunciations since but this spelling convention is our best guide to what used to be. And if the Scotch confirm the fact well it turns out they do have their uses after all.
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Pulp History


In: Wales
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Mick, what then if the original transcriber of the word 'head' was writing in a region where it WAS pronounced 'hey-ad' (a bit like a cowboy might say it!! Southern drawl) - some parts of Wales put in the extra vowel sound (hey-ad ..... try it in a Welsh accent!!).........

As for 'might' I believe the g is just the same as a y, and the h before the t is to transcribe a slight output of breath with the 't' (as if breathing onto a window) = m-eye-y-ht. How else can the output of breath during pronunciation be written??
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Pulp History


In: Wales
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A swerd and bokeler bar he by his syde. (A sword and buckler bore he by his side)
A whit cote and a blew hood wered he. (A white coat and a blue hood weared he)
A bagpipe wel koude he blow and sowne, (A bagpipe well could he blow and sound)
And therwithal he brought us out of towne. (And there with all he brought us out of town)

If I were writing this in a West Country accent:

A swerd and bucklor bar 'ee boy 'iz zide
A white cowt and a blew 'ood werd 'ee
A bagpipe well kood 'ee' blow and zownd
And theyrwithall 'ee braut uz out of town

There we go, Zummerzet Middol Inglisch
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Pulp History


In: Wales
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Hogging the post here, but anyway........

What about inversions - they happen regularly in transcribed texts. So, Head may have been 'heda' showing that the 'd' had a definite 'du' sound to the end of the word......... over time 'heda' could become 'hed' or 'head'. There are examples of this occurring such as 'aks' and 'ask'........... just a thought.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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The point is that for any alleged vowel shifted pronunciation, you could still find someone who pronounces it that way today.

Quite so. As I think I mentioned above, rhymes are pivotal in historical linguistic analysis, but even today, what rhymes in writing can still rhyme when spoken, but in different ways; or perhaps not at all, depending on the accent.

What beats me is that they will tell you all about the spread of standardisation, but then treat the "Middle English" period (which informs the rest of the industry) as if it had already happened.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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If head was pronounced head when they started writing the word down, they would have simply written it hed. Why on earth would they not?

What if that's a long E, as in he? H-e-d would be "heed". There is no guarantee that single vowels are short and pairs are long.

straightforward a, e i, o, u short sounds.

a: ma, pa, ta = "mah", "pah", "tah"
e: be = "bee"
i: Hi = "high"
o: do = "doo"
u: tu, (kung) fu, Ku (Klux Klan) = "tū", "foo", "koo".

There is no guarantee that single vowels are short and pairs are long.

Three ways: might...no that used to be pronounce as in macht of course.

"Of course"? G = Y = J. Might = mijt = "mite".

this spelling convention is our best guide to what used to be.

No, knowing that Chaucer wrote in plain English is our best guide to what used to be.
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