MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
The Troy Game (History)
Reply to topic Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 12, 13, 14
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Donmillion


In: Acton, Middlesex
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Hatty (bonjour, Hatty) wrote:

Is it usual for a town to be called after a tribe? And would, even a French, tribe be called after a hair-do?

There are numerous examples right here in Britain of Roman towns being named after local British tribes. See http://www.romanbritain.freeserve.co.uk/townsevidence.htm for an extensive discussion of the Roman evidence for town-names, showing that it was common for Romans to name towns after local tribes: curia Textoverdorum (Vinlanda), civis Cantii (Canterbury), and civitas Catuvellaunorum (a.k.a Verulamium) are examples. Generally better known (and probably more relevant) are Isca Dumnoniorum (Exeter of the Dumnonii), Calleva Atrebatum (Silchester of the Atrabates), Viroconium Cornoviorum (Wroxeter of the Cornovii), and Durovernum Cantiacorum (Canterbury of the Cantiaci).

It would be possible, therefore, for a Roman town to have been called <something> Trinovantum, e.g., civis Trinovantum ('the Trinovants' city'). But there is no documentary evidence of this earlier than Geoffrey (the earliest surviving Roman references are to Londinium), and no archaeological evidence of pre-Roman settlement in the area covered by the Roman city (Not that such evidence may not be forthcoming.) On the other hand, Chelmsford (Roman Caesaromagus, 'Caesar's Field') would make better sense as the Trinovant 'capital', and accordingly is sometimes known as Caesaromagus Trinobantum. (Post-conquest, their capital was at Colchester, Roman Camulodunum).

As to what tribes were actually named after; I haven't been able to find a parallel among British tribal names to 'Three-Plaited People' (i.e., a tribal name that refers to a characteristic of personal appearance), but there's plenty of other scope, including tribes named for deities, local geographical features, animals, or battle-prowess. However, there are some occurrences of 'personal' characteristics, such as 'Generous People' (Coritani) or (possibly) 'Very Vigorous People'( the Trinovantes). More of a reach is the possibility that Iceni, also recorded as Ceni, is the same as Gaulish Cenomani, 'Head People'.

Interesting about boatmen and boats, Paris is also Par-ys, i.e. like an island or Ile de Paris.

Haven't seen that one before, Hatty, and can't find anything via a quick Google. Care to give more details?

If smith is related to pryd, does that mean Britain means 'tin-smithy' since the name allegedly derives from Welsh Prydain?

See http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Britain_-_Etymology/id/619849 for some items on the etymology of "Britain". Most common assigned meaning is '[Place of] the Painted People' (compare Pict, and Caesar's remarks about woad); but the underlying form Qruitanos, revealed in Old Irish Cruithin, has the same root as cruth. (Cruth doesn't mean 'smith' in modern Irish, by the way, but 'shape' or 'form'.) There's a large number of possible meanings for a word derived from the underlying root, kwer-, which simply means 'to make' or 'to do', and 'painters', 'poets', 'smiths', and 'wizards' have all been among them in various Indo-European languages--not to mention 'creators'.

I like your speculation, but at the moment that's all it can be (but in my opinion, that's just like 'painted people').

Quarisii or quarriers? Part of the team of magic-makers? Perhaps all tied up with 'core' and 'coeur' words, disembowelling and so forth.

A link to 'quarrier' seems doubtful, since the latter comes from Latin via French (or perhaps the other way round, by AE thinking) and has always had initial 'qu-'; whereas the equivalent to Goidelic qu- in Latin is c- (as in creator).

'Core' and 'Coeur' therefore look more promising; they're held to be related to one another (essentially the same word, by my thinking, though the etymology of 'core' is said to be 'unknown' in some quarters). But the way the same word appears in other languages (English heart, Latin cord-is, Greek kardia, Hittite kir, and critically Welsh craidd, not praidd) point to an IE root kerd- rather than kwer- (if you believe that IE stuff. Provisionally, I do).

So très in French means both 'three' and 'very', similar to Welsh (tra and tair).

Well, no. 'Three' in French is trois. Très ('very') allegedly doesn't come from Latin tres ('three'), but from trans ('beyond'). I can see the thinking, but without my dictionary of French etymology (oh the pains of living in a small flat on the other side of the world from home!), I can't see the evidence. Without that, I'd say, 'If the Celts could do it, why not the French'? But the fact that Latin tres would correspond to two different forms in French, one identical, the other considerably different, would worry me.

I haven't got an etymology of Welsh tra ("very") to hand, but I know it's a reduced form of trag, also drag, which I think reflects an earlier drach. Welsh tair is the feminine of tri, "three". I strongly doubt that tra[g] and tri are related, but at the moment I've no solid evidence either way, only what philology has taught me about those devilish alleged sound-changes. (We know they happen, but are they really that regular?)

Geoffrey's history is no more trustworthy than any other historical account but it's a bit reckless to dismiss his entire oeuvre as fantasy. There was certainly a lot of toing-and-froing between traders looking for tin and copper etc., no doubt including 'Trojans'.

I love 'toing-and-froing'; I rhyme it (only internally!) with 'boing-boing'.

I didn't dis all of Geoffrey's 'history', just the parts that have clear political motives, and which are not represented in any other work or supported by any other evidence. Personally, I have a romantic hope that the archaeologists will be proved wrong, and a pre-Roman settlement will emerge under London some day. Intensive and extensive underground excavations (including of course the sewers and the underground) have found no sign of it, though.
Send private message Send e-mail
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

it was common for Romans to name towns after local tribes

Yes, capito, but what I was thinking about were towns' names in the native language, not names (temporarily) imposed. Just because somewhere like Chelmsford got translated into Latin doesn't somehow convince when Neolithic and Iron Age evidence lies all around.

Paris is also Par-ys, i.e. like an island or Ile de Paris.

...Care to give more details?

Ys or ile = island. Par/Qua = equal to/like.

Personally, I have a romantic hope that the archaeologists will be proved wrong, and a pre-Roman settlement will emerge under London some day.

Clearing up after the Blitz, archaeos found prehistoric stuff, notably under churches. No-one seems to know how old London is.
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

The lowest crossing point of the Thames must, by pure geography, be (one of the) the most important places in south-east Britain. However I don't know how you go about finding where this originally was. London is a good fit but if it isn't there must be a huge(ish) pre-historic place hereabouts somewhere. Possibly Acton.
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Prehistoric finds beside the Thames mainly seem to be flint flakes and utensils but there was a Bronze Age bridge at Vauxhall. The river has been dredged and redredged, causing plenty of damage, but there were islands or eyots, not necessarily natural, e.g. at Wandsworth, which would suggest fords, or series of bridges, existed.
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

I didn't realise that Troy was said to be the centre of the world until the Christian era when it was supplanted by Jerusalem. The name Troy is associated with labyrinths and as the centre of the ancient world was Byzantium it is perhaps not surprising that the word byzantine is almost synonymous with labyrinthine, not that Byzantium was the only city up to its turrets in political intrigue. The Trojan horse is the best known example of subterfuge in Classical mythology.

There isn't much evidence of mazes left but some oddly OT-related names remain in the south of England. I'm thinking of inserting a short para in the first When U Get Home bit to give a flavour of what to look out for...

Something else that should give you pause when out walking is a name that is out of keeping with its (present) surroundings where nothing but a field or perhaps a farm exists, for instance a signpost in the heart of the Kent countryside pointing to 'Great Nineveh' and 'Little Nineveh' because a name like Nineveh suggests either a scholarly local possibly with a sense of humour or a vanished maze. In the Kentish case the Nineveh field is by a footpath leading to a 'Roman ford' and further on a beacon hill but more interesting is its proximity to a prestigious girls' boarding school that traces its history back to a Norman knight. English public schools have a habit of appearing in somewhat esoteric Megalithic surroundings, Marlborough on its Mount (a prehistoric barrow) being a well-known example. The Miz-Maze on St. Catherine's Hill, Winchester, is said to have been built by the students of the boys' school.
Send private message
Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
View user's profile
Reply with quote

"...the city was doomed when it took in that 'horse', within which were all the bravest of the Greeks waiting to bring death and destruction on the Trojans..."


Italian naval archaeologist Francesco Tiboni has claimed that the Trojan horse was actually a boat, not a wooden horse containing warriors. Anyway I can't find his paper, but the gist appears to be it was a boat with a horse head prow.

This must be right, not that it happened (it is myth), or he is right. He has actually explained what must have always happened all ways, everywhere.

So it's the origin of the Viking myth, these are not raiders they are traders, you let them in, thinking they are bringing gifts, but they ruin your eternal city. You end up getting the worse end of the deal. You end up by losing (coin) more than you gain.

It is just by the time of the Vikings the horse/hippo head was a dragon.

The fall of Troy was an etenrnal warning about the perils of unthinkng foreign trade and inwards migration.
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

There are no references to the Trojan horse story in the 'literature' apart from Vergil's Aeneid, first heard of in association with Italian luminaries of the fifteenth and sixteenth century (Pontano, Cardinal Bembo, Orsini). Various 'fragments' and damaged illustrations 'in poor condition' have been reassembled to reconstruct 'the original book'. The 'oldest codex', in the Vatican Library, is not the work of Vergil as the Wiki article points out

There was a well-organized workshop that created the Vergilius Vaticanus

Troyes in France is the same word as trois, i.e. three, just spelt differently, though French etymologists insist Troyes was named for the Tricasses, a 4th-century Gaulish tribe. The only evidence for the Tricasses comes from writings by Pliny and Ptolemy but unfortunately their original manuscripts are 'no longer extant' so can't be verified. Rather oddly, and I don't know if it's relevant, but troia, supposedly the Greek form of Troy, means 'slut' in Italian.
Send private message
Boreades


In: finity and beyond
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Robert John Langdon. Mentioned before, perhaps for his map of the Silbury and Avebury water levels. Now updating his pages on Troy in Britain.

Troy debunked – will come in three versions over the coming weeks – Troy – debunked (part – two) looking at plato’s writing indicating the Northern Europe connection – Troy – Debunked (Part Three) looking at the City of Troy and its origins and plants mentioned within the book that can only come from Northern Europe – Troy-Debunked (part four) looking at the Achaeans of the Trojan war to find them all blond and blue eyed(including Helen).


Part 1.
Troy – Debunked shows that Troy did not exist in Asia Minor but in fact the North Sea island of Doggerland

https://prehistoric-britain.co.uk/troy-debunked-part-one
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

What is your view of this thesis?
Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 12, 13, 14

Jump to:  
Page 14 of 14

MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group