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[Again from Komorikid]
| Could it not be that the ancient heart of our modern Judaism/Christianity/Moslem beliefs was at Babylon. |
I like your assumption, Oakey.
After all, the Judaic historical/religious texts originated in Babylon after Jerusalem was sacked by the Babylonians and the Hebrews' elite were taken there as slaves.
They were subsequently released when Babylon was conquered by the Persians, the home of Zoroastrianism.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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[ aside ]
Phonetically, "Visi" is "u(w)is(i)" or "wis."
Notice that the West is associated with aging and death. Wisdom = west-dom.
[ /aside ]
| Who were the Eastern Goths or Ostragoth? |
Sorry, that should be Ostrogoths. There's plenty to look up on the Goths. They're reckoned to be central/northern European Germanic types, who invaded and/or conquered France/Spain (Visi) and Italy (Ostro), in the familiar ruling-élite-nothing-to-do-with-the-proles-and-kicked-out-again-later style.
| But perhaps there is no reason to to believe they were white at all. Without a good reason to think so, we must presume them darker-skinned. |
I'm not sure what the evidence is supposed to be either. I gathered that the schoolboy assumption that Romans and Greeks looked Italian or Greek was supposed to be wrong; and that their depiction in art, or whatever, showed that they were really pale-skins. But it might just be that with the notion of a much later Muslim invasion bringing the swarthy looks in their minds, they're just seeing the pictures wrong. We should assume the peasantry to be dark, but I dunnobout the overlords.
| Barbar-ians (Barbary-coast natives) lived both south and north of Italy. |
Are you thinking of Transalpine and Cisalpine Gauls? (We'll come to them in a future thread.)
| We don't need some "invasion" then to get the Visi-goths in place. |
That depends entirely on what "in place" means. I don't think Visigoths are ever equated with Spanish or French natives, so we can let the invasions come and go freely.
| Still there! Spain, Morocco, Southern France and North Africa. |
I meant where are the "Barbars" said to live north of the Alps?
| Who are the "Gotts?" Not familiar with these people. |
Gott = god.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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DPCrisp wrote:
Who were the Eastern Goths or Ostragoth?
Sorry, that should be Ostrogoths. There's plenty to look up on the Goths. |
When I asked that question, I did not even realize the Ostrogoths existed! Just found out they do. They are said to be a German tribe (as supposedly were the Visi-Goths).
Ok. The answer is obvious: German Jews!
Visi-Goths are Sephardic Jews while Ostro-Goths are German Jews.
| They're reckoned to be central/northern European Germanic types, who invaded and/or conquered France/Spain (Visi) and Italy (Ostro), in the familiar ruling-élite-nothing-to-do-with-the-proles-and-kicked-out-again-later style. |
I see two enveloping waves that mirror the supposed Moslem invasions of the Middle Ages. One wave encroaches on Europe from the south west (via Spain) while the other moves up through the Balkans to Germany.
Barbar-ians (Barbary-coast natives) lived both south and north of Italy.
Are you thinking of Transalpine and Cisalpine Gauls? (We'll come to them in a future thread.) |
Perhaps. Is there a relationship between Gaul and Goth? The thing about the word Gaul is, if it follows the French phonetic pattern, "G" is a form of "W" which makes the word "Gual" "Wual." When I first considered that I thought of "Wales" and the "Welsh" or "Gales" and "Gelsh" -- which also meshes with "Galic" or "Walic" and might then match with "Gothic" or "Wothic."
Rules: G = W, W = W
Implications:
Welsh = Welsh
Wales = Wales
Galic = Walic
Gothic = Wothic
Goths = Woths
Gauls = Wauls
I have no idea if there is anything to this!
| That depends entirely on what "in place" means. I don't think Visigoths are ever equated with Spanish or French natives, so we can let the invasions come and go freely. |
I got my info from The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail. According to the authors, the Visi-Goths were in control of southern France. I consider this "north of the Alps" from the Roman perspective. Orthodoxy says the Visi-Goths invaded from Germany. I say they were there from the earliest period of Roman history and likely came up via North Africa and Spain -- which is why the Romans called them "Barbar-ians."
Is it possible the name "Gott" "Goth" or "God" was given these people because of their MONO-theistic faith?
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Oakey Dokey
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Ish
Wales is the old English word for foreigner. - Wal
As in Walnut etc.
Don't know if this has an implication?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Ish, Wales is the old English word for foreigner. - Wal |
Then is "Gual" or "Wual" the Latin word for "foreigner"?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Then is Cornwall the Wales of the Horn?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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My own original assumption was that Gothic is the alphabetised version of Swedish, just as Anglo-Saxon is the alphabetised version of German. And that therefore the Goths are from Goth-land i.e. Gottland where modern Gothenburg is, in southern Sweden.
To me, the Goths are just a variation on Anglo-Saxons and Vikings i.e. they trade, they pillage or they conquer depending on the opposition. When the Western Roman Empire collapsed, naturally enough they conquered; the Visigoths in the west and the Ostrogoths in the east.
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Oakey Dokey
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Barb -Female- Latin The foreigner or stranger. From the name Barbara.
Barbara- Female Latin- The foreigner or stranger.
WALE (British). "Foreign" (Germanic); or, "choice, excellent, noble" (Middle English); or, "ridge, bank".
GERMAN (British). "German." The term 'German' is a Celtic word meaning either "neighbour" or "battle-cry."
And MOST interestingly with W = G
Gaul in Latin is Gallia
the Welsh noun plural - les Gallois - The Welsh.
So Wales was known as the foreigners before the English coined the word Wal for them!!! WOW, now that is odd.
OMG I think I have the answer:
The whole of Britain at the end of the last Ice Age was becoming detached from mainland Europe, there was little distinction between the tribes until the English Channel filled.
Gal- Britain (post Ice age)
Wal- Britain (pre Celtic? ie Picts, Viking etc)
Portugal, Galicia, Gaul (France), Cornwall (Cornugales - Cornu=horn), Gales (Wales)
British lands end Fingal? End of Britain?
Galloway etc
How about an Ancient Egyptian general called 'Gaedhal'?
Did he start this wandering 'foreigner' tribe of Celts (not the original Picts).
I would say that there is good evidence now to suggest the Biblical Galatians!
Now it's just a matter of chronologically putting the order of naming and arrival of the Picts, Celts, Gauls in the land named Gal (Western Europe as a whole).
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Oakey Dokey
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Gallipoli - Greek 'Beautiful City' from 'Kallipolis'
It's a peninsula in northern Turkey (Troy link?)
It's also a place in southern Italy.
What if this whole western region from North Africa to the ice sheets had been a super-nation of Galatians at the retreat of the last glaciation max?
Would the Med, Azores and Canaries (Gaunchies-Guanac) all have been part of this empire? Yes, I would tend to think so.
Also
Gall
nm. g. Goill; pl. Goill, foreigner, a Scottish Lowlander
The Irish Scots also saw Lowland Scots as foreigners.
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Oakey Dokey
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And the plot thickens.
Gal was not a country.
It was an idea.
Gal also means hill/wood (gallt). The Druids of the ancient west practiced a dualistic approach to monotheism. It's hard to describe but most Gnostic traditions saw the scenario as such:
One source or head god, He gave rise to two other gods. Male/female, Good/evil etc. Basically balancing forces or whatever.
They believed that the two lesser gods fought over your soul for reincarnation or enlightenment and your subsequent release from earthly bondage.
The Druidic faith is no different. The interesting point is that their places of worship were hills and tree groves (gallt). Are these western Galatians hill/wood worshippers? The people who worship on hills and in woods? It explains why witches were so badly persecuted by the Church as were the Cathars and Bogomils. They ARE the same idea.
The main pointer is that the Druids were around before the Celts and adopted by the Celts, the Druids were not just priests, they were wealthy administrators. To break the Celtic and Gaulish nations, Rome knew the Druids were the only way of eliminating the unity of the 'barbarians'.
Now I really need some help here.
The sacred number of the Druids and most northern and western religions is 3. This is the Trinity which the Church takes as F,S & HG. But the center of Druidic learning and its origins are placed in Britain. The whole of the Gal nation sent their Druid priests to Britain for education (taking around 20 years to complete).
http://www.tylwythteg.com/Entrance/druids-1.html
What I can't figure out is, was Britain just an academy for learning and a bastion for the Druidic faith? Or was the faith based in the supposed origins of the Celtic peoples - the Caucasus mountains, known as the Strobilus to the ancients (later Turkey/Troy to which the Greeks taught their writing and religion)?
Oh and the Masons often refer to the Druids as the most religious of Masons! The Druids could very well be the master masons refered to (henges and such). It's all starting to blur but the feeling is that some of the ideas and rituals go way back.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Barb -Female- Latin The foreigner or stranger. From the name Barbara.
Barbara- Female Latin- The foreigner or stranger. |
'Barbarian' comes from Greek meaning 'babble' or 'Babel', originally an onomatopoeic word to signify unintelligible language rather than a derogatory term as later used.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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So they say... but be very careful with your comes froms.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Sephardic, to me, has connotations of 'bookishness' ("People of The Book"?), from Hebrew sefer meaning book.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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On the other hand, might have to throw the Book out...Sephardi sounds like it may have the same derivation as 'safari':
| Safari ....from Swahili, lit. "journey, expedition," from Arabic, lit. "referring to a journey," from safar "journey" (which is attested in Eng. as a foreign word from 1858). (Online Etymology) |
Wandering Jews, innit?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| In Hebrew after the Diaspora, the name Zarephath(צרפת, ts-r-f-t, Tsarfat) is used to mean France, perhaps because the Hebrew letters ts-r-f, if reversed, become f-r-ts |
Perhaps they're thinking of Sfat (Tzfat), a very interesting town in the north of Israel near the Lebanese border, and a cabbalistic centre (hence the connection with France, in particular Provence).
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