| View previous topic :: View next topic |
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
 |
|
| The ortho interpretation of the conquest of Roman Britain goes something like this. |
Not an interpretation, it is always presented as fact. On a par with 'The Second World War started in 1939...'.
| The first attempt starts in 55 BC when Julius Caesar crosses the Oceanus, leaves, and then returns the next year |
I have often wondered how this somewhat awkward incident crept into the story. Assuming De Bellico Gallico was written in Italy during the Renaissance, it suggests playing to an English audience but that doesn't seem quite right.
| nothing much happens for the next ninety or so years |
That's what makes it awkward.
| before nutty Caligula prepares, and fails miserably, for reasons no-one is quite sure. Caligula blames the cowardice of the troops. |
Nobody is quite sure why Caligula gets such a bad press but his troops blamed Caligula and assassinated him. So they say.
| The next attempt is by Claudius, in 43 AD, ortho has it that he succeeds and by 46 AD you have coins featuring a triumphal arch and “De Britann†to show he had conquered the island and added it to the Roman empire. The coins, it is said, show the historical sources are correct. |
OK
| Less well known is that Claudius also minted a didrachm at the Caesarea mint in Cappadocia. This coin features Claudius in a quadriga (Chariot with 4 horses), assumed to be returning from Britain as on the reverse of the coin is the legend “DE BRITANNISâ€. The obverse also contains clues: it is marked “TI CLAVDIVS CAESAR AVG GERM P M TR P†|
When you say 'a didrachm' I am naturally concerned.
| “GERM†is short for Germanicus, which is a title Claudius only used at the Rome mint in 41-42 AD. “TR P†refers to his first “Tribunicia Potestate†(Tribunician power; the power to veto legislation) which was awarded annually. Claudius' first Tribunicia Potestate ran from the 25th of January 41 AD to the 24th of January 42AD. |
OK. (I seem to remember from I, Claudius that Germanicus was a particular favourite of his.)
| The coin often gets dated to 43-48 according to source, although it's clearly according to the legend 42, i.e. before the invasion takes place. To get round this it is also speculated that maybe the coin was issued to celebrate the impending victory....... |
A likely story.
|
|
 |
|
 |
|
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
|
|
The Claudian invasion was a mighty undertaking involving a supposed fighting force of 40,000 men. Not easy, it required a fleet, the Classis Britannica, to provide the logistics.
| A fleet was originally raised for the invasion of Britain under Claudius, with the task of bringing an invasion force of 40,000 men from the Roman army, plus supplies, to Great Britain. It continued after the successful invasion to provide support for the army, shuttling massive quantities of supplies across the English Channel. |
Wiki is struggling for evidence of actual boats but we do have, err, Roman roof tiles.
| There is no literary reference in the classical historians to the Classis Britannica by that name, and archaeological evidence is also tantalizingly scant (although tiles stamped CLBR are common along the east Kent coast and in London, suggesting either government buildings or an early instance of army surplus), meaning that details of its history and form are unfortunately based on a large degree of interpretation. |
It gets more bizzare
| This fleet played a major role in the subsequent conquest of Britannia. However, Tacitus states that strangely, about twenty years after the invasion, it was not present at Suetonius Paulinus's crossing of the Menai Strait to Anglesey before the Boudican Rebellion.[1] This suggests the force was still occupied in the Channel area, unsuitable to the long voyage up to north Wales, or too small by then to offer any useful level of support to the ground troops. |
The ships were designed only to travel 5 miles or so across the Oceanus.
| The fleet disappears from the archaeological record towards the middle of the 3rd century but is known from contemporary sources to have continued in existence after this date. |
It's a gap. However......
In 286, Carausius, a Roman military commander of Gaulish origins, was appointed to command the Classis Britannica, and given the responsibility of eliminating Frankish and Saxon pirates who had been raiding the coasts of Armorica and Belgic Gaul. However, he was suspected of keeping captured treasure for himself, and even of allowing the pirates to carry out raids and enrich themselves before taking action against them, and Maximian ordered his execution.
In late 286 or early 287 he learned of this sentence and responded by usurping power and declaring himself emperor of Britannia and northern Gaul. When the British fleet was attacked by a Rhine fleet representing the Roman Empire, the British fleet was victorious, showing that it must have been substantial at the time. The would-be invaders, however, blamed poor weather for their defeat.
By 300, however, Britannia was once again a part of the larger Roman Empire, and the Classis Britannica restored as a Roman imperial fleet. |
What about those tiles?
| In the Weald of south-east England stamped tiles of the Classis Britannica have been found at sites associated with the production of iron.[4] The largest of these is at Beauport Park, near Battle, East Sussex, where more than 1000 tiles were used to roof a substantial bath house adjacent to a large iron smelting site.[5] Other iron production sites where tiles have been found are at Bardown, near Wadhurst, Sussex,[6] and Little Farningham Farm, near Cranbrook, Kent.[7] Three other sites where tiles have been found had access to navigable water in Roman times, and two of them, at Bodiam,[8] and at Boreham Bridge near Ninfield,[9] both in Sussex have associated ironworkings. The implication is that the Classis Britannica not only transported iron but was involved in its production as well. |
Funny that.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
The Claudian invasion was a mighty undertaking involving a supposed fighting force of 40,000 men. Not easy, it required a fleet, the Classis Britannica, to provide the logistics.
A fleet was originally raised for the invasion of Britain under Claudius, with the task of bringing an invasion force of 40,000 men from the Roman army, plus supplies, to Great Britain. It continued after the successful invasion to provide support for the army, shuttling massive quantities of supplies across the English Channel. |
This strikes me as reasonable for an opposed Channel crossing. However we are always told -- and as I understand it, the coinage shows -- southern Britain was already thoroughly penetrated by Roman Gaul.
Wiki is struggling for evidence of actual boats but we do have, err, Roman roof tiles.
There is no literary reference in the classical historians to the Classis Britannica by that name, and archaeological evidence is also tantalizingly scant (although tiles stamped CLBR are common along the east Kent coast and in London, suggesting either government buildings or an early instance of army surplus), meaning that details of its history and form are unfortunately based on a large degree of interpretation. |
Supports either version.
It gets more bizzare
This fleet played a major role in the subsequent conquest of Britannia. However, Tacitus states that strangely, about twenty years after the invasion, it was not present at Suetonius Paulinus's crossing of the Menai Strait to Anglesey before the Boudican Rebellion.[1]
This suggests the force was still occupied in the Channel area, unsuitable to the long voyage up to north Wales, or too small by then to offer any useful level of support to the ground troops. |
It's not exactly apples and apples, is it? Cattle were driven across the Menai Straits, and who the hell is going to be opposing Paulinus, Sid Anglesey and his merry men?
| The ships were designed only to travel 5 miles or so across the Oceanus. |
I don't understand this bit. The Strait is a few hundred yards wide.
| The fleet disappears from the archaeological record towards the middle of the 3rd century but is known from contemporary sources to have continued in existence after this date.. |
There wouldn't be an archaeological record and I don't accept there are any contemporary sources but I would have thought there would be an ongoing need for a Roman fleet in northern waters.
It's a gap. However.....
In 286, Carausius, a Roman military commander of Gaulish origins, was appointed to command the Classis Britannica, and given the responsibility of eliminating Frankish and Saxon pirates who had been raiding the coasts of Armorica and Belgic Gaul. However, he was suspected of keeping captured treasure for himself, and even of allowing the pirates to carry out raids and enrich themselves before taking action against them, and Maximian ordered his execution. |
Ho-hum.
| In late 286 or early 287 he learned of this sentence and responded by usurping power and declaring himself emperor of Britannia and northern Gaul. When the British fleet was attacked by a Rhine fleet representing the Roman Empire, the British fleet was victorious, showing that it must have been substantial at the time. The would-be invaders, however, blamed poor weather for their defeat. |
Sounds like a rerun of the Armada.
| By 300, however, Britannia was once again a part of the larger Roman Empire, and the Classis Britannica restored as a Roman imperial fleet. |
Ready for Constantine and Christianity!
What about those tiles?
In the Weald of south-east England stamped tiles of the Classis Britannica have been found at sites associated with the production of iron.[4] The largest of these is at Beauport Park, near Battle, East Sussex, where more than 1000 tiles were used to roof a substantial bath house adjacent to a large iron smelting site.[5] Other iron production sites where tiles have been found are at Bardown, near Wadhurst, Sussex,[6] and Little Farningham Farm, near Cranbrook, Kent.[7] Three other sites where tiles have been found had access to navigable water in Roman times, and two of them, at Bodiam,[8] and at Boreham Bridge near Ninfield,[9] both in Sussex have associated ironworkings. The implication is that the Classis Britannica not only transported iron but was involved in its production as well.
Funny that. |
You'll have to explain the joke.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
|
|
| In the Weald of south-east England stamped tiles of the Classis Britannica have been found at sites associated with the production of iron.[4] The largest of these is at Beauport Park, near Battle, East Sussex, where more than 1000 tiles were used to roof a substantial bath house adjacent to a large iron smelting site.[5] Other iron production sites where tiles have been found are at Bardown, near Wadhurst, Sussex,[6] and Little Farningham Farm, near Cranbrook, Kent.[7] Three other sites where tiles have been found had access to navigable water in Roman times, and two of them, at Bodiam,[8] and at Boreham Bridge near Ninfield,[9] both in Sussex have associated ironworkings. The implication is that the Classis Britannica not only transported iron but was involved in its production as well. |
| You'll have to explain the joke. |
Most tiles for the evidence of the fleet are found in mainly inland sites. So they have had to scout around for something that might link them, ie iron working, so as to explain why.
So the archaeology for a massive fleet becomes inland roof tiles stamped CL BR. There is nothing within ortho for a securely dated fleet base within Britain prior to Trajan. Tile stamping is thought to be in use second to third century.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
|
That's good. That's very good.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
|
|
Pegging
| wiki wrote: | | Archaeologists suggest that Pegwell Bay was the landing site for both Roman invasions of Britain by Julius Caesar. |
New to me, bit of a blow to Wiley's thesis that Julius did not invade once, let alone twice.
| A full-size replica Scandinavian longboat complete with shields is situated by the main road on the low clifftops above Pegwell Bay to commemorate the first Anglo-Saxon landings in England hereabouts. The replica, named Hugin, sailed from Denmark to Thanet in 1949 to celebrate the 1,500th anniversary of the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain, the traditional landing of Hengist and Horsa, and the betrothal of Hengist's daughter, Rowena to Vortigern, King of the Britons |
Thud, another heavy blow.....
| Nearby Ebbsfleet is the site of the landing of the first Christian mission to southern England, by St Augustine, in 597 AD, commemorated by St Augustine's Cross. |
Wiley is simply not going to recover.
Everybody agrees that crossing was a hazardous business, it was past the edge of the Roman known world, and indeed Julius' first invasion was blown off course, and St Augustine's tremblers tried to pull out even before starting, little did they know, you always end up in Pegwell.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
It's a world record collection of world records! And just one more to add to the list
| Although there have been plenty of imitators, Ebbsfleet United will always be the first professional sports club owned and run by an online community. Guardian | |
|
| |
|
|
|
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
|
|
https://bitly.ws/3fswP
This is a sign of real desperation from Londoners wanting "Londinium" to be the ancient Roman capital.
They want you to believe that the "capital" switched from Colchester to London as, after the Boudican revolt, the Romans built a fort in London that could house 500-800 troops.
| Archaeologists believe it would have accommodated between 500 and 800 troops – a mixture of legionaries and auxiliaries and of infantry and cavalry. |
Cripes, a cohort.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
|
|
No one knows what happened to large areas, of Londinium, conventionally round about the 4th century (common era) the city was stripped of buildings and buried under a layer of dark mud, or dark earth. The thinking is that you have Roman archaeology that has been covered in this soil, that has probably been used subsequently either for agriculture or cattle-raising. There are no "Roman" levels of settlement finds above the dark earth level.
You can argue about the specific dates of the finds below, could they be later or earlier than is conventially thought.
You can argue about the dates and function and cause of the Dark Earth.
You can argue that the deeper finds are not "Roman", what you cannot do is argue with the stratigraphy. No one is going to fake a wide worthless layer of dark earth over settlement finds.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
|
You can cut out 'common era'. Unless you tell us who it was common to. I'm still not clear what sequence--and what chronology--you are arguing for. Perhaps a quick (non-bogus) list with dates (BC and AD, for preference).
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
|
|
Chronology is difficult. Consider Pompeii.
There is a very interesting article here that makes the case for Pompeii, like Nola, a nearby settlemnt wiped out by Vesuvius, actually being a much older non Roman pre-historic bronze age settlement. https://fogofhistory.com/2022/08/19/the-problem-with-pompeii/
| Precisely nothing about Pompeii is “Roman” save some of the graffiti of indeterminable age. (Most graffiti off the main square is not written in Latin but in Greek). The city is pinned to the accepted chronology by the thinnest of premises. The “first hand” account by Pliny the Younger. Except the oldest dateable extant copy of that account stems from the 16th century when they were miraculously “rediscovered” though the letters themselves were never produced. |
ROME — Italian archaeologists have discovered one of the world's best-preserved prehistoric villages, a "Bronze Age Pompeii" that was buried in volcanic ash near the world-famous Roman city almost 4,000 years ago.
The ancient settlement was overwhelmed by volcanic flow when Mount Vesuvius erupted around 1800 B.C., smothering the village near present-day Nola in southern Italy many centuries before Pompeii suffered the same fate. | |
|
| |
|
|
|
Ishmael
In: Toronto
|
|
|
|
| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | | There is a very interesting article here that makes the case for Pompeii, like Nola, a nearby settlemnt wiped out by Vesuvius, actually being a much older non Roman pre-historic bronze age settlement. |
Chronologically, they shifted it in the wrong direction.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
|
|
Exactly, my first thoughts. Still.......
Roman Londinium, and close by Saxon Lundenwic, exhibit a similar conundrum. When excavated the finds are blanketed in "Dark Earth" sometimes up to a metre deep. The older finds are sealed in a capsule below.
Mysteriously Londinium is dated to last to about the 3rd/4th Century when it's covered in "Dark Earth", Ludenwic around 10th/11th when it gets covered in "Dark Earth". The settlements are actually connected by roads, but the ortho view is that Londinium was abandoned and when the Saxons came along, they settled close by to the decaying abandoned Roman ruins that either had been covered/or were still being covered by the "Dark Earth".
Heinsohn of course thought that the Dark Earth was one event and so you have a phantom 700 years.
Roman Pompeii, Bronze Age Nola, same event, same dates.
Roman Londinium, Saxon Lundenwic same event, same dates.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
|
Is there a Saxon London, either in history (faked or not) or archaeology (true or misapplied)? I've never come across anything and I'm a Brummie myself.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
|
|
This is the sort of thing you are looking at. https://rb.gy/al8h8e
An Alfred the Great, Monogram penny. The earliest record of a London Monogram penny is a coin illustrated in John Speed’s History of Great Britain, which was in the collection of Sir Robert Cotton in 1606. Nine hoards have been found, but only two hoards within London.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
The Library Index 
FAQ 
Search
Register
Profile 
Log in to check your private messages 
Log in 
