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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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There may be a big clue about the timing of RTZ emergence from the personality of its founder, Hugh Matheson. From the legendary Hong dynasty of Jardine Matheson, he also played a part in helping Japan become an industrial giant.

Matheson played an important role in developing early trading relations with Meiji era Japan. In 1863 in his role as senior partner of Matheson and Company he provided an introduction for the Chōshū Five to Alexander William Williamson, Professor of Chemistry at University College, London, enabling the Japanese students to register as non-matriculated students at the university.

These five pioneering students went on to take leading roles in the development of the Japanese economy. In their capacities as businessmen and senior government officials they oversaw institutions and government departments that became active customers for British manufactured industrial goods.

One of the five students, Itō Hirobumi, subsequently became Japan's first prime minister. On return visit to Britain in 1872 as a part of the Iwakura Mission Itō was to request Matheson's assistance in recruiting British academics to provide instruction at the newly established Tokyo Imperial College of Engineering.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Matheson_(industrialist)
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Why there was a long gap remains unclear. Was there no big demand for Rio Tinto metals for 500 years?

There wasn't a gap, the historical time line is out of sync. In the 12th century Rio Tinto was in business as usual.
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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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Hatty wrote:
Why there was a long gap remains unclear. Was there no big demand for Rio Tinto metals for 500 years?

There wasn't a gap, the historical time line is out of sync. In the 12th century Rio Tinto was in business as usual.


Sorry, didn't make myself AEL clear enough. It was meant as a rhetorical question. What is perhaps more interesting (in an Age of Empires kind of way) is why a Scottish Hong firm (trading in China and Japan) would decide it was their turn to supercede/replace the Roman legacy.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Wiki doesn't have much to say
Wiki wrote:


The draco ("dragon" or "serpent", plural dracones) was a military standard of the Roman cavalry. Carried by the draconarius, the draco was the standard of the cohort as the eagle (aquila) was that of the legion. [1]

The draco may have been introduced to the Roman cavalry by Sarmatian units in the 2nd century[citation needed]. According to Vegetius, in the 4th century a draco was carried by each legionary cohort.[2]

The dragon was originally a Dacian emblem. According to Fiebiger,[citation needed] the Romans adopted it from the Dacians, after their defeat [3] or from the Parthians.



The imagery used to illustrate this is Carolingian cavalry in chain mail. In other words it's an image from a dark age illuminated manuscript of Carolingian cavalry wearing armour inspired by Romans, for which there is no Carolingian archaeology.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_(military_standard)
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Dacian -- Romanian.

Parthian -- Persian? (We once speculated on a Persian-Norman ancestry).
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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The Roman Parthian conflict was over the area now known as Armenia.

wiki wrote:
In the next centuries, Armenia was in the Persian Empire's sphere of influence during the reign of Tiridates I, the founder of the Arsacid dynasty of Armenia, which itself was a branch of the Parthian Empire. Throughout its history, the kingdom of Armenia enjoyed both periods of independence and periods of autonomy subject to contemporary empires. Its strategic location between two continents has subjected it to invasions by many peoples, including Assyria (under Ashurbanipal, at around 669–627 BC, the boundaries of Assyria reached as far as Armenia and the Caucasus Mountains),[57] Medes, Achaemenid Empire, Greeks, Parthians, Romans, Sasanian Empire, Byzantine Empire, Arabs, Seljuk Empire, Mongols, Ottoman Empire, the successive Safavid, Afsharid, and Qajar dynasties of Iran, and the Russians.


The pagan Garni Temple, probably built in the first century, is the only "Greco-Roman colonnaded building" in the post-Soviet states.[58]
Religion in ancient Armenia was historically related to a set of beliefs which, in Persia, led to the emergence of Zoroastrianism. It particularly focused on the worship of Mithra and also included a pantheon of gods such as Aramazd, Vahagn, Anahit, and Astghik. The country used the solar Armenian calendar, which consisted of 12 months.

Christianity spread into the country as early as AD 40. Tiridates III of Armenia (238–314) made Christianity the state religion in 301,[59][60] partly, in defiance of the Sasanian Empire, it seems,[61] becoming the first officially Christian state, ten years before the Roman Empire granted Christianity an official toleration under Galerius, and 36 years before Constantine the Great was baptised. Prior to this, during the latter part of the Parthian period, Armenia was a predominantly Zoroastrian.[61]

After the fall of the Kingdom of Armenia in 428, most of Armenia was incorporated as a marzpanate within the Sasanian Empire. Following the Battle of Avarayr in 451, Christian Armenians maintained their religion and Armenia gained autonomy.


A imagined Herodotus world map with Armenia at its centre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia#/media/File:Herodotus_World_Map.jpg

NB Armenia becomes the first Christian state in 301. However prior to this linear date religion in ancient Armenia was historically related to a set of beliefs which, in Persia, led to the emergence of Zoroastrian particularly focused on the worship of Mithra.



There is a quite a bit out there from "disreputable sources" about the Mithras Cult. Some appear to think that the Roman Catholic church is still a Mithras cult.

The more respectable sources point to various similarities, by drawing up lists from all ancient strands of of mithras worship and common christian beliefs.

Virgin birth
Twelve followers
Killing and resurrection
Miracles
Birthdate on December 25
Morality
Mankind's savior
Known as the Light of the world

There is then a bit of row about borrowings.... who came first. Mithras or Christ. What is the origin etc.

Wiley is going with the disreputables.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Here is the current Armenia coat of arms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Armenia#/media/File:Coat_of_arms_of_Armenia.svg
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Ovid wrote:

Now Caesar is planning to fill in the final gaps of Empire:
now the furthest East will be ours,
Revenge will fall on Parthia:joy lighten the grave of Crassus,
Redeem the standards profaned.
By barbarian hands.


The pressure was on Augustus
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Coupla points. It seems to have a sea in front of Mount Ararat(?). Which is odd because they don't seem to have a connection with the Caspian worth featuring on your coat of arms and besides, from their point of view, the Caspian is on the other side of Mount Ararat.

Where you view Mount Ararat from is a footnote in one of our other discussions. It is apocryphal but Philby is said to have sent a holiday snap of Mount Ararat to his SIS colleagues that, it was noted only after his defection, could only have been taken from the Soviet side.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Could be Lake Van? Lake Van is on the borders of Turkey, Armenia and Iran/Persia.

Underwater ruins found in the lake recently caused great excitement. The diving team were advised they wouldn't find much in the lake though probably the opposite is true.

Mr Ceylan told Turkish newspaper Hürriyet Daily News, “many civilizations and people had settled around Lake Van. They named the lake the ‘upper sea’ and believed it had many mysterious things.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/castle-discovered-lake-turkey-underwater-lake-van-urartu-thousands-years-old-a8070911.html
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Mick Harper
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Yes, of course, the mercurial Lake Van. Ishmael will remember I referred to this in my seminal 'Is the Nile Artificial? piece all those years ago. The coat of arms by the way is modern

this coat of arms is based on the one created by Alexander Tamanian and Hakob Kojoyan for the Democratic Republic of Armenia, 1918—1922

so it would be interesting to find out what they based it on. Presumably their own imagination (look at Slovenia's football shirts!) but still significant in terms of Armenian folklorist perceptions. Again presumably that is Noah's Ark on Mount Ararat but why a straight line?
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Ishmael


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Mick Harper wrote:
Ishmael will remember I referred to this in my seminal 'Is the Nile Artificial? piece all those years ago.


Never forgot.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Mick Harper wrote:

so it would be interesting to find out what they based it on.


The eagle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome
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Wile E. Coyote


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Augustus (Augury) is not distracted by love (anthony) or greed (crassus), you gotta love the bit where the Parthians pour gold down Marcus Licinius' throat (talk about a fitting end). Augustus opts for a primarily negotiated return for the eagles. Here he has a massive stroke of luck, the kidnapped son of the Parthian king Phraates, err also called Phraates (looks like Euphrates)....falls into his hands. Augustus proposes a swap.......Phraates the king (presumably Phraates junior was in favour) initaillay declines,but two years on relents and the standards are returned. The Parthians are put in their place.

The eagles have landed back in Rome.

It only goes to show how Feronia smiled on Augustus.

http://www.artancient.com/antiquities-for-sale/collections/ancient-coins-sale/roman-imperial/ancient-roman-silver-augustus-denarius-coin.html

There is nothing like a bit of triumphal symbolism.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Mick wrote:
Coupla points. It seems to have a sea in front of Mount Ararat(?). Which is odd because they don't seem to have a connection with the Caspian worth featuring on your coat of arms and besides, from their point of view, the Caspian is on the other side of Mount Ararat.


There is a scholarly consensus.....

Wik wrote:

Despite the scholarly consensus that the "mountains of Ararat" of the Book of Genesis do not refer to specifically Mt. Ararat, it has been widely accepted in Christianity as the resting place of Noah's Ark. It is the principal national symbol of Armenia and has been considered a sacred mountain by Armenians. It is featured prominently in Armenian literature and art and is an icon for Armenian irredentism. Along with Noah's Ark, it is depicted on the coat of arms of Armenia.



Still it's the first Christian State in 301.
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