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Legend (NEW CONCEPTS)
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Mick Harper wrote:


If only I were a lady novelist.


The mustachio will have to go.
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Wile E. Coyote


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History records that the task of Romanising the Huns was begun in 13 B.C. by Emperor Augustus' stepson and designated heir Tiberius, he has as a local commander, the husband of the Emperor’s niece, one Publius Quinctilius Varus.

Time rumbled on......the Romans, as they did, put their faith in recruiting tribal chiefs, to keep in line malcontents, ie folks/volks that didn't care for civilisation, one such chief they recruited headed the Cherusci tribe and was by the name of Arminius.

Arminius was playing off the Romans by telling them he was a loyal ally but (damn) plotting their overthrow. In 9 AD Arminius sees his chance, 3 Roman legions are due to transfer from summer to winter camps (geddit) through narrow dark forest tracks and winding ravines. Arminius advises his (merrie) warriors to prepare the trail with trapdoors, hides and and of course ropes to swing down from the branches... (made up the last bit but you should get the mental picture)

All three legions were swallowed by the Teutoberg forest....Worse, the Eagles were lost.

Now that was unlucky. In fact it's almost as unlucky as the Ninth that goes missing in Britain.

Maybe it's just me.

But was it legions or was it legend.


Postscript:

In the second year of Tiberius’ reign, the new Emperor is desperate for prestige (bit like Augustus) and seeks to recover the Eagles and so authorised his nephew Germanicus to punish the Cherusci and get the standards back.

Germanicus retraces the steps of his comrades, punishing the Cherusi as he goes.

Somewhere, according to Tacitus, in the middle of this dark age(geddit) forest they come across the bones of the massacred legionaries, and two out of the three eagles were recovered........partial light is restored.
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Mick Harper
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Emperor Augustus' stepson and designated heir Tiberius, he has as a local commander, the husband of the Emperor’s niece, one Publius Quinctilius Varus.

That I did not know. Surely that meant Varus was actually Augustus' natural heir. Tiberius was merely the son of Augustus' second wife, Livia Claudia.

In the second year of Tiberius’ reign, the new Emperor authorised his nephew Germanicus to punish the Cherusci and get the standards back

Not so. Germanicus was also a legitimate heir of Augustus, only adopted by Tiberius, and who also came to a mysteriously sticky end. This all sounds like a power struggle between the Julians (a very minor patrician family) and the Claudians (a very major patrician family).

It should always be borne in mind that all these colourful stories about the Emperors we know and love so well are pretty much imaginary, though imagined by whom I cannot say. If you doubt this, come up with another set of rulers, for whom we do have reliable histories, who behaved anything like the Roman ones. Catherine the Great neither had sex with horses nor appointed them to high office.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Mick Harper wrote:

It should always be borne in mind that all these colourful stories about the Emperors we know and love so well are pretty much imaginary, though imagined by whom I cannot say.


That is something I will cover on Coin, alongside the coin evidence. I will also take a look at names.

But not here.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
Still was it the the "unluckiest"......legion, or for that matter legend. It does sound a tad familiar.

Mick wrote:
Do you consider there is anything more than coincidence between the two worst Roman defeats being Carrhae and Cannae? The German one against Arminius didn't get a name as far as I know


So both Sutcliff's story "Eagle of the Ninth" and the trek of Germanicus feature a plotline, legend or historical coincidence about the retracing of steps to the dangerous, dark otherland to recover the lost eagle(s) from the territory of the lost legion(s).

The eagle is the "Roman" symbol of resurrection.

Messengers (like eagles) travel up and down. Towards darkness, towards light.
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Wile E. Coyote


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The myths concerning legions are legion.

It's a staple of historical fiction, lady novelist or otherwise.....

Let's take a look at Legio xx



Legio XX Valeria Victrix and their final days in Deva (Chester) in the early AD 400s form the backdrop to the Tom Stevens mythic fiction genre novel The Cauldron (special edition)[10] with the story's protagonist Valerian—the Praefectus and Chief Centurion—defending the city with the rump of the legion against the incursions of Hibernian pirates as the "Dark Ages" settle on Britannia.[11] The movie Victrix! The Valiant of Albion is in production and features an adaptation of Tom Stevens novel.

Legio XX Valeria Victrix was the legion featured in the novel Eagle in the Snow; author Wallace Breem postulates that they were annihilated by the Germanic invasion of 406.

Several of the main characters in the early novels of Jack Whyte's A Dream of Eagles series were former members of Legio XX Valeria Victrix.

Gaius Petreius Ruso, protagonist of Medicus by Ruth Downie, is a military doctor in Britannia attached to Legio XX.

Legio XX Valeria Victrix lends its name to the character Valeria Matuchek in Poul Anderson's Operation Chaos and its sequel Operation Luna; her mother is said to describe this legion as the last to leave Britain—"the last that stood against Chaos".

The first person narrator of Stephen Vincent Benét's short story "The Last of the Legions" is the senior centurion of the Valeria Victrix, who recounts the events and the impressions of soldiers and populace surrounding the departure of the legion from Britain.

Legion Company of the U.S. Army's 1st battalion, 503rd Infantry Regiment, 173rd Airborne Brigade stationed in Vicenza, Italy is named after Legio XX. They chose this name for the paratroopers' ability to fight fiercely behind enemy lines.

Legio XX Valeria Victrix features in the six novel series "Soldier of Rome - The Artorian Chronicles" by James Mace


See what I mean. "Eagle of the Snow", "A Dream of Eagles", note this legion was the last to leave Britain—"the last that stood against Chaos".
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Wile E. Coyote


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Still we can't assume it will be for Legio ix.......

The Ninth Legion's mysterious disappearance has made it a popular subject for historical fiction, fantasy and science fiction.


The Silchester eagle, the Roman eagle that inspired Sutcliff's novel. According to Reading Museum it "is not a legionary eagle but has been immortalized as such by Rosemary Sutcliff."[24]
In Rosemary Sutcliff's 1954 historical novel The Eagle of the Ninth, a young Roman officer, Marcus Flavius Aquila, is trying to recover the Eagle standard of his father's legion beyond Hadrian's Wall.
A Home Service radio dramatisation of The Eagle of the Ninth was broadcast on Children's Hour in about 1956.
In Alan Garner's 1973 novel Red Shift, one narrative involves a group of Roman soldiers who are survivors of the Legion's destruction, trying to survive in hostile, 2nd-century Cheshire.
In Karl Edward Wagner's 1976 fantasy novel Legion from the Shadows (featuring Robert E. Howard's Bran Mak Morn), the survivors of the Ninth flee underground where they interbreed with the Worms of the Earth.
A BBC television serial was made of The Eagle of the Ninth in 1977.
The 1979 historical novel Legions of the Mists by Amanda Cockrell recounts the destruction of the Ninth Hispania by an attack by combined tribes in Scotland.
In David Gemmell's "Stones of Power" historical fantasy series, (1988–1991) the Ninth have been trapped in Limbo and are released by the protagonists (Uther Pendragon in Ghost King and Alexander the Great in Dark Prince (1991)) to help in battles.
In Will Murray's 1993 Doc Savage novel, The Forgotten Realm,[25] the Ninth Hispana founded a city called Novum Eboracum ("New York") in the African Congo, surviving until at least the 1930s.
A full-cast radio dramatization of The Eagle of the Ninth was broadcast by BBC4 in 1996.[26]
In Marion Zimmer Bradley's Lady of Avalon historical fantasy novel, (1997) the Ninth is destroyed in a battle with the native Britons, from which the hero Gawen escapes to return to Avalon.
In Susanna Kearsley's 1997 novel The Shadowy Horses, an archaeologist believes he has found the remains of a fort that housed the Ninth Legion in remote Eyemouth, Scotland.[27]
N. M. Browne's 2000 Warriors of Alavna accounts for the disappearance of the Legion by transporting it to an alternative reality.
Valerio Massimo Manfredi's 2002 historical novel L'ultima legione (The Last Legion) depicts the Ninth Legion as being part of the legend of King Arthur.
Jim Butcher's Codex Alera fantasy series (2004–2009) is populated by the descendants of the Ninth Legion and its camp followers, who were transported to the world of Carna.[28]
The 2006 album Caledonia by German Celtic metal band Suidakra includes a song "The IXth Legion" about the legion's fight with the Picts.
The 2007 movie The Last Legion based upon the Manfredi novel.
In Stephen Lorne Bennett's 2010 historical novel Last of the Ninth the Ninth Legion is destroyed by the Parthians under General Chosroes, in Cappadocia in 161 AD.
The 2010 movie Centurion follows the destiny of the Ninth Legion, as seen from the perspective of centurion Quintus Dias.
The 2011 movie The Eagle is based on the book The Eagle of the Ninth.
The 2017 Doctor Who episode "The Eaters of Light" features the remnants of the Ninth Legion, which was wiped out by an extradimensional being.
In Marc Alan Edelheit's 2017 book Lost Legio IX: The Karus Saga the remains of the IXth, about to be destroyed by the native Britons, find themselves transported to another planet where they will rebuild a Roman civilization.
In Kate Atkinson's novel Behind the Scenes at the Museum, set in 20th-century York, the ghosts of the members of Legio IX - together with those of people from other periods in York's history - celebrate the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II in 1953, and raise aloft their legion' Eagle in the new Queen's honor.


Jesu. How many times can you reinvent this?

It's a bit like when a boat goes missing, you mysteriously get bottles with messages washing up on the beach........offering you an explanation.......
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Hatty
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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
The Reverend Joyce (1864-1878) made some notable finds in his excavations at Silchester which he believed were of the Roman period.

Here is the so called "Prancing Horse".
https://www.artfund.org/supporting-museums/art-weve-helped-buy/artwork/4274/silchester-collection-of-roman-antiquities-roman

The link you posted seems unsure of its Romaness

Mainly from the excavations of Reverend Joyce (1864-1878) and the Society of Antiquities (1890-1909). Includes mosaics, bronzes, stone carvings, jewellery, glass, kitchen utensils, tools, 12,000 coins and a stylised figure of a prancing horse (illustrated) which is 1st century and probably pre-Roman


The photograph looks rather similar to the famous Uffington White Horse chalk figure, reportedly of Bronze Age date, so 'pre-Roman' would apply. But if so, how would Rev Joyce have dug it up in the 1890's? Silchester archaeologists began digging this century and excavated the Roman layer for a decade or more before reaching the Iron Age town beneath. It's not possible to remove an object from the lower level without removing the upper level or stratum in archaeo-lingo.

Wiley reckons our eagle and horse are most probably 19th century.....but you know that I don't know......

Victorian antiquaries were very taken with white horse figures and made a few themselves so it wouldn't surprise me if Wiley was spot on.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Bravo Hats, if you look at the history there is little until the 19th century when the German Classicist Theodor Mommsen came up with the destruction of the 9th.

The traditional theory is that the Ninth was destroyed in a war on Britain's northern frontier against the indigenous Celtic tribes. According to the eminent 19th-century German classicist Theodor Mommsen, "under Hadrian there was a terrible catastrophe here, apparently an attack on the fortress of Eboracum [York] and the annihilation of the legion stationed there, the very same Ninth that had fought so unluckily in the Boudican revolt."[11] He suggested that a revolt of the Brigantes soon after 108 was the most likely explanation. Mommsen cited as evidence the Roman historian Marcus Cornelius Fronto, writing in the 160s AD, who told the emperor Marcus Aurelius: “Indeed, when your grandfather Hadrian held imperial power, what great numbers of soldiers were killed by the Jews, what great numbers by the Britons”.[16] The emperor Hadrian (r. 117-38) visited Britain in person around 122 AD, when he launched the construction of Hadrian's Wall because, according to one Roman source, “the Britons could not be kept under Roman control”.[17] It is plausible that Hadrian was responding to a military disaster.[18] However, there is no archaeological evidence of it around 120.


So the archaeology and history match. According to Wiley. But I am only right till the refutation comes along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OO2PuGz-H8
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Mick Harper
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Under Hadrian there was a terrible catastrophe [at] York and the annihilation of the legion stationed there.

Indeed, when your grandfather Hadrian held imperial power, what great numbers of soldiers were killed by the Jews, what great numbers by the Britons

I expect only Ishmael will run with it but York was the site of the first massacre of British Jews in 1190 so Romans = Jews and 1190 = 190. But he had the idea first.
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Mick Harper
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Oh, and he almost forgot, Adrian [first and only English pope, 1154-9] = Hadrian i.e. his grandfather.
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Hatty
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The site of the 1190 massacre of York's Jews is Clifford's Tower

They naturally looked to Clifford's Tower, the site for two castles built by William the Conqueror after his conquest of England in 1066. Its wooden defences or keep were first burned down during a local rebellion in 1069 before being destroyed for a second time during a siege of Jewish citizens in 1190.



Burning down is routine for as yet non-detected 'Early Christian' churches (presumably built of wood) and whether Clifford's Tower existed in 1190 is similarly unverified. All that can be reliably stated is the tower dates to the thirteenth century.

English Heritage archaeological investigations came up with a report

Very little investigation has ever been carried out into it and the principal source of information is a short article summarising the observations made in 1902 during Basil Mott’s works to underpin the south-east lobe.

In the early 21st century, a number of studies were carried out during a revision of the Conservation Plan and as enabling studies for the possible addition (not yet taken further) of a new structure inside the ruined monument. Research included a reappraisal of contemporary documentation for the tower’s internal layout in the Middle Ages, a non-invasive archaeological analysis of the standing structure and a ground-penetrating radar survey of the north-east lobe.

These studies were in general suggestive rather than conclusive for the medieval development of the tower, and indicated that the 17th-century refortification might offer greater scope for understanding.

Future research will no doubt be forthcoming.

Massada is supposed to be a precedent for the York massacre but it's a known myth (except for tourists)

At the time and during the medieval period these victims were regarded as martyrs in the same way as those at Massada* in the 1st Century CE.
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Ishmael


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I posted on this elsewhere. The story is an obvious duplicate of Masada.

Masada = Romans massacred and Jews massacred.
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Hatty
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1190 seems to be quite a historic date even discounting York. It was the year of the death of Frederick I, Barbarossa, crowned Holy Roman Emperor by 'our' Pope (H)Adrian.

Barbarossa is credited with organising the Third Crusade which immediately unravelled at his death. According to the 'Saxon World Chronicle', of 1229-77, he died by drowning in shallow water in the Saleph river in Turkey. His unpreserved body parts were distributed three ways reminiscent of a saint's cult

his flesh was interred in the Church of St Peter in Antioch, his bones in the cathedral of Tyre, and his heart and inner organs in Tarsus


Frederick I was the subject of later Celtic-style stories involving Arthur and ravens, and a rather strange one to do with figs and donkey faeces and rude gestures (fico).

In England 1189, the year when Henry II (and his eldest daughter, Matilda) died, marks "time immemorial" as we noted in a different context.
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Mick Harper
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His unpreserved body parts were distributed three ways reminiscent of a saint's cult

Bigger than a saint.

Shortly after Alexander's death in Babylon, the possession of his body became a subject of negotiations between Perdiccas, Ptolemy I Soter, and Seleucus I Nicator.

These were the inheritors of Alexander's empire and who got Europe, Africa and Asia respectively (presumably the origin of our modern continents though I've never thought of it that way before -- it is all actually one landmass geographically). Perdiccas took the body off to Greece but Ptolomy hijacked it on the way and spirited it away to Egypt, leaving the other two with the scraps

While Ptolemy was in possession of Alexander's body, Perdiccas and Eumenes had Alexander's armor, diadem and royal scepter.

So many likely stories.
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