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William of Occam (NEW CONCEPTS)
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Birds, including corvids, a Megalithic favourite, eat snails. And molluscs if the shell can be dealt with. A programme about 'clever crows' filmed a crow somewhere on the Welsh coast waiting for a train to smash open a mussel which it'd placed on the (straight) track.

Shell remains are routinely found in middens. They may not have part of a human diet after all.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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That is possible, even ingenious -- have you been at the coffee pods with the amphetamine infusion you can get off the Dark Web? -- but surely it is more likely that the corvids were trained to find the snails, trained to remove the shells and then given something less disgusting to eat for their efforts. Or more disgusting -- bees are given sugar water in exchange for their honey. Though messing with bees is, I agree, easier than messing with corvids.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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OK time for a few new ideas........or rather old wine in new bottles. Mine is a red/purple.
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Wile E. Coyote


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When I started reading up on the Gordian Knot, a couple of things quickly became clear.

Phrygia was made up of Kings either Gordias or Midas. That's just two Kingnames for one fictional Kingdom each with an incredible powerful myth.

Gordias = Knot

Midas= Golden touch

According to the ancient sources the knot was made out of the bark of the cornel. What we need is a expert on the folklore of trees to comment. (please).

Phrygia itself is a bit of a puzzle. The kings of Phrygia were alternately named Gordias (associated with the knot and the foundation myth) and Midas (of the golden touch). You might have heard of Midas.

The founding myth is that the elders had been instructed by the oracle to acclaim as their king the first man who rode up to the god's temple in a cart....A peasant farmer called Gordias (Gordios, Gordius), arrives he dedicates the ox-cart in question, tied to its shaft is the "Gordian Knot."

Gordius founds his capital at Gordium on the old trackway through the heart of Anatolia which later becomes Darius' Persian "Royal Road" from Pessinus to Ancyra, not far from the River Sangarius.

We tend to think of the Phrygians as wearing soft caps. (if the cap fits) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_cap


It is clear to Wiley that although these myths have become separated (Midas has been christiansied to become a fable about avarice, or so they say) (Gordian got stuck in with Alexander, its about problem solving) still they are in fact part of the same myth. In fact this link is more explicit as some sources have Gordias as the father of Midas.

It's just nobody sees the link, so there are multiple histories that no one can date and multiple interpretations about these separate myths.

We can't show orthodoxy is wrong about a couple of myths, but we can try and come up with new ideas.....that offer a more powerful explanation.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Hatty immediately unleashed an arrow.

Hatty wrote:
Re cornel or Cornus mas, Wiki has an article on its uses, mainly the fruit which is astringent and used in distilling spirits (not dissimilar to juniper berries perhaps?).

The wood was prized for weaponry

The wood of C. mas is extremely dense and, unlike the wood of most other woody plant species, sinks in water. This density makes it valuable for crafting into tool handles, parts for machines, etc. Cornus mas was used from the seventh century BC onward by Greek craftsmen to construct spears, javelins and bows, the craftsmen considering it far superior to any other wood. The wood's association with weaponry was so well known that the Greek name for it was used as a synonym for "spear" in poetry during the fourth and third centuries BC.

Doesn't sound easy to make into a knot


Bullseye.

Doesn't sound easy to make into a knot
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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So why would you want to fasten the yoke of a wagon (or mighty chariot for that matter) with tree bark?

Let's take a pace backwards....

Alexander arrives in Gordian about 300 years after Midas and is confronted by a cart held together by tree bark. In some sources he cuts a knot....in others he simply removes a pin from the knot.

Hats wrote:
Doesn't sound easy to make into a knot. Perhaps that's the point (no pun), not possible for any ordinary person. Arthur comes to mind.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Perhaps the peg was of Cornel wood? Perhaps our humble cart or mighty chariot was of Cornel wood?
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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It's not easy to unpick myths but fun. Many aspects seem to point to navigational markers. Knots are a measure of speed/distance and Gordium was at the meeting point of a north-south river and a couple of miles north of a major east-west trade route.

Wiki describes the Gordian knot as

this intricate knot joined the yoke to the pole of a Phrygian wagon that stood on the acropolis of the city.


Seems like the sort of landmark (hilltop menhirs or church spires) you'd expect on a long distance track.

A pole also serves as a direction-finding device. Gordium is in the Polatli district of Anatolia. There may be a 'sun-journey' aspect to the myth, hence the Golden Touch element. Driving a chariot, or wagon, across the sky is a familiar trope in 'sky' legends.

Knot also suggests a riddle. Delphi, another staging post on a trade route, was similarly associated with a sun god myth. Wiki says

According to the Greek historian Herodotus, King Midas was the first foreigner to make an offering at the sanctuary of Apollo at Delphi, dedicating the throne from which he gave judgment
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Yes and it was situated on the so called Darius Royal Road.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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The sources specifically point to a Cornel Cherry........

Here is what H posted......

wki wrote:
The red dye used to make fezzes was produced from its bark, and tannin is produced from its leaves.


So this knot was dyed red..........Cornel bark is used for dyeing.

And (keep this in the back pocket of your tyrian purple slacks as you take your dog for a walk) for this special knot anyway...........

D=T

Dyeing is linked to Tying.

Coincidence?

Well get this.

online wrote:
Spelling distinction between dye and die was not firm till 19c. "Johnson in his Dictionary, spelled them both die, while Addison, his near contemporary, spelled both dye" [Barnhart].
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Of course this Dye/Die is one step too far...

Or is it?

http://www.jennydean.co.uk/yew-tree-wood-shavings/
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
OK time for a few new ideas........or rather old wine in new bottles. Mine is a red/purple.


As Megalithic researchers we learned that the mute swans on the Thames are owned by the Queen, the Vintners and the Dyers.

Dyeing (and dying) is closely tied to botany and medicine. Plants or parts thereof were boiled, combined, chewed up, pressed... for most things from indigestion to snake bites.

Mauve, invented in the mid 19th century, was a plant dye

Etymonline
1859, from French mauve, from Old French mauve "mallow" (13c.), from Latin malva "mallow;" the dye so called from the color of the mallow plant
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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So Alexander arrives, and is confronted with a red/purple knot, so the legend goes. He goes hesitantly forward..... If he unties the knot he will become King of all Asia....

The first thing he must do is show respect or adoration for this famous coloured relic....

The adoratio of the purple is believed to be a Imperial cult practice in the 4th Century AD, (whatever) when the coin evidence shows sun worship was rife. In order to approach a Roman emperor and speak freely, favored advisers were allowed to kiss the purple, ie they could be trusted to give safe counsel.

The young Alexander must have found this knot memorable as he later was to reward some of his most valiant soldiers with purple tunics....... clearly these bold chaps could be relied upon.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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It's interesting (to Wiley) that the search for Tyrian Purple has been pursued with the same vigour that the alchemist pursues gold.....from the baser metals......
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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It seems this area around Gordium, north-west Anatolia, was the starting point of a much later empire

In the Middle Ages, the valley of the Sakarya was the home of the Söğüt tribe, which went on to establish the Ottoman Empire.


The exalted status of purple came to a rather abrupt end, in just two hundred years

after the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks in 1453, the color lost its imperial status. The great dye works of Constantinople were destroyed, and gradually scarlet, made with dye from the cochineal insect, became the royal color in Europe

Seems a bit odd after so many centuries. Why is purple so inextricably linked to the Ottoman Empire? It would appear to have political significance since purple is of course readily available to any competent medieval dyers' guild.
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