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William of Occam (NEW CONCEPTS)
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Occam's Razor


Occam's razor is credited to someone named William of Ockham.

I suggest the man is a fiction.

This is the Oakum that is being referenced in the phrase "Occam's Razor."
Oakum is a preparation of tarred fibre used to seal gaps. Its main traditional applications were in shipbuilding, for caulking or packing the joints of timbers in wooden vessels and the deck planking of iron and steel ships; in plumbing, for sealing joints in cast iron pipe; and in log cabins for chinking. In ship caulking, it was forced between the seams using a hammer and a caulking iron, then sealed into place with hot pitch.
The question then is, what is the razor? What was it used for? Why would one want a razor for Oakum?
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Ishmael wrote:
Occam's Razor


Occam's razor is credited to someone named William of Ockham.

I suggest the man is a fiction.

This is the Oakum that is being referenced in the phrase "Occam's Razor."
Oakum is a preparation of tarred fibre used to seal gaps. Its main traditional applications were in shipbuilding, for caulking or packing the joints of timbers in wooden vessels and the deck planking of iron and steel ships; in plumbing, for sealing joints in cast iron pipe; and in log cabins for chinking. In ship caulking, it was forced between the seams using a hammer and a caulking iron, then sealed into place with hot pitch.
The question then is, what is the razor? What was it used for? Why would one want a razor for Oakum?


I can't see that you would, but maybe I am conditioned by my sparse knowledge of Oakum, which I associate with workhouses. Workhouse inmates were often compelled to keep busy by picking Oakum ie they were given old ropes and had to pick these into fibres.

Bit like unpicking a problem?

Are you saying that the razor/shaving bit in Occam Razor was a later misunderstanding? The orthodox interpretation is wrong? It's more like unpicking?
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
Are you saying that the razor/shaving bit in Occam Razor was a later misunderstanding? The orthodox interpretation is wrong? It's more like unpicking?


Exactly what the metaphor was I don't quite get. Except that unraveling a rope is laborious work much (as you say) like solving a difficult problem.

One thing I'm pretty well sure of though is that the Occam in Occam's Razor was in fact oakum.

Is the razor a kind of "Gordian Knot" reference? Was Alexander's task to untie a rope, or was it unravel the rope?.
The Gordian Knot is a legend of Phrygian Gordium associated with Alexander the Great. It is often used as a metaphor for an intractable problem (disentangling an "impossible" knot) solved easily by finding a loophole or thinking creatively ("cutting the Gordian knot"):
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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A traditional caulking iron looks an awful lot like a straight razor.

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Ishmael


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Got it.

An oakum "razor" was a blunt instrument but highly useful. It's a joke name. It isn't a razor at all. It's very dull and unrefined but of great utility.
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Mick Harper
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Now that does sound right. A typical piece of English plebeian (self?) mockery. But how did it reach the savants?
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Which means William of Occam was either a wholesale invention or he was borrowed from history to play an invented role.

He isn't the only such figure.
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Ishmael


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J.S. Bach (1685---1750) wrote so many classical compositions in his 65 years of life that, "if you hired a competent copyist just to copy what he composed, it would take them 40 years of eight-hour days."

Maybe there was a J.S. Bach. Maybe there was a William of Occam (maybe). If there was a William of Occam, he didn't compose Occam's Razor. If there was a Bach, how certain can it be that he composed everything attributed to him?
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Ishmael wrote:

Is the razor a kind of "Gordian Knot" reference? Was Alexander's task to untie a rope, or was it unravel the rope?.
The Gordian Knot is a legend of Phrygian Gordium associated with Alexander the Great. It is often used as a metaphor for an intractable problem (disentangling an "impossible" knot) solved easily by finding a loophole or thinking creatively ("cutting the Gordian knot"):


According to the ancient sources the knot was made out of the bark of the cornel. What we need is a expert on the folklore of trees to comment. (please).

Phrygia itself is a bit of a puzzle. The kings of Phrygia were alternately named Gordias (associated with the knot and the foundation myth) and Midas (of the golden touch). You might have heard of Midas.

The founding myth is that the elders had been instructed by the oracle to acclaim as their king the first man who rode up to the god's temple in a cart....A peasant farmer called Gordias (Gordios, Gordius), arrives he dedicates the ox-cart in question, tied to its shaft is the "Gordian Knot."

Gordius founds his capital at Gordium on the old trackway through the heart of Anatolia which later becomes Darius' Persian "Royal Road" from Pessinus to Ancyra, not far from the River Sangarius.

We tend to think of the Phrygians as wearing soft caps. (if the cap fits) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_cap

Maybe Mede Midas?

Wiley sees the cicularity here Gordias (poor) Midas (Golden) Gordias poor Midas Golden. The cart /chariot (both circle words) cutting the knot, to become king. The gold. The red cornel.

It all reeks....
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Hatty
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Re cornel or Cornus mas, Wiki has an article on its uses, mainly the fruit which is astringent and used in distilling spirits (not dissimilar to juniper berries perhaps?).

The wood was prized for weaponry

The wood of C. mas is extremely dense and, unlike the wood of most other woody plant species, sinks in water. This density makes it valuable for crafting into tool handles, parts for machines, etc. Cornus mas was used from the seventh century BC onward by Greek craftsmen to construct spears, javelins and bows, the craftsmen considering it far superior to any other wood. The wood's association with weaponry was so well known that the Greek name for it was used as a synonym for "spear" in poetry during the fourth and third centuries BC.

Doesn't sound easy to make into a knot. Perhaps that's the point (no pun), not possible for any ordinary person. Arthur comes to mind.

In Italy, the mazzarella, uncino or bastone, the stick carried by the butteri or mounted herdsmen of the Maremma region, is traditionally made of cornel-wood, there called crognolo or grugnale, dialect forms of Italian: corniolo.

Maremma region came up in connection with llans and sheep. The Maremma sheepdog is famous as a "guardian livestock breed". The region includes Tuscany and Lazio and Rome itself, a centre of power in Christendom. Maybe the bastone made of cornel was a staff of office, cf. sceptre, crook and the fasces. The crook itself would be one of the most potent Christian symbols.

The red dye used to make fezzes was produced from its bark, and tannin is produced from its leaves.

A fez isn't so different from a phrygian cap. Hermes was associated with red and carried a serpent-entwined staff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornus_mas
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N R Scott


In: Middlesbrough
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Ishmael wrote:
If there was a Bach, how certain can it be that he composed everything attributed to him?

Many of Vivaldi's works were "rediscovered", including The Four Seasons.

It's an extraordinary fact; the modern world nearly didn't get to hear The Four Seasons by Vivaldi.

Although hugely popular in his time, Antonio Vivaldi's work fell out of fashion after his death in 1741. For nearly 200 years his manuscripts lay forgotten, his music unplayed.

Just eighty years ago his manuscripts were re-discovered, and amongst them was the collection of concertos known as The Four Seasons.
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Mick Harper
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Just eighty years ago his manuscripts were re-discovered, and amongst them was the collection of concertos known as The Four Seasons.

I'm not saying this is the case here but lots of people have, over the centuries, and as we have found out, and especially in Italy, passed off their own work as that 'of the masters'. It don't half give you a leg up (though it's tricky claiming the royalties).

Re cornel: it would seem to be the yew of those parts and times. We never really did get to grips with why Cornwall is called Cornwall. I will post up our Phrygian (rhymes with Stygian) section from our next book (ono).
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Mick Harper wrote:
Just eighty years ago his manuscripts were re-discovered, and amongst them was the collection of concertos known as The Four Seasons.

I'm not saying this is the case here but lots of people have, over the centuries, and as we have found out, and especially in Italy, passed off their own work as that 'of the masters'. It don't half give you a leg up (though it's tricky claiming the royalties).


Just like Reynolds painted the Mona Lisa.

Someone needs to put some time and effort into researching these "rediscoveries." There's a book in it!
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Mick Harper
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Already been written. By Charles Dickens. Found the manuscript myself as a matter of fact.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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HA HA HA ha ha ha!!!!!!
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