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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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We need to hear more about these 'pseudo-Scottish monks'. Since, as far as I know, nothing had been coming out of Scotland, even by orthodox standards, since the seventh/eighth centuries (Duns Scotus apart) these are clearly anomalous. We need to know, just for starters, whether we are dealing with, as it were, real pseudo-Scottish monks or what modern historians have decided were pseudo-Scottish monks.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| With the Melk Reforms of the early 15th century, stricter and more standardised rules were forced upon the pseudo-Scottish monks, to which they objected. As a result, Duke Albrecht V threw them out in 1418 and replaced them with a more disciplined crowd of Benedictine monks from Melk. |
If this is to be relied on, it obviously could not be Albrecht V of Bavaria (1528-79). The only Albrecht V that fits is Albrecht V of Mecklenburg who was doing something very interesting at this exact time
On 13 February 1419, Albert V and John IV together with the Council of the Hanseatic City of Rostock founded the University of Rostock as the first university in northern Germany and in the entire Baltic region.
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It's a long way from Ratisbon though Scotland and the Hanseatic League were 'close'.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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The 'right' Albrecht is Albrecht II King of Germany/Albrecht V Archduke of Austria
| Albrecht started a reform of the monasteries, concentrating on the Benedictines, the oldest and wealthiest institutional order in his lands. Starting out from the abbey at Melk, the founding idea of a monastic life lived in obedience and poverty was to be re-established. Begun under the supervision of the ruler in 1418, the Melk Reform led to a final flowering of monastic life and culture before its decline during the course of the Lutheran Reformation. |
http://www.habsburger.net/en/chapter/albrecht-v-turbulent-reign?language=en
He spent most of his reign defeating the Hussites in Bohemia, then fighting Turks in Hungary and expelling Jews from Austria. He may have decided appropriating Benedictine assets wholly appropriate for his purposes.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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| With the Melk Reforms of the early 15th century, stricter and more standardised rules were forced upon the pseudo-Scottish monks, to which they objected. As a result, Duke Albrecht V threw them out in 1418 and replaced them with a more disciplined crowd of Benedictine monks from Melk. |
This business of the "Celtic" abbeys and monasteries being put "under new management" (Benedictine) rings a bell.
Bernard de Tiron --> Tironensians
| The masons who built Kilwinning and many other great abbeys and churches in Scotland, Wales, France, Ireland and England were monks of a very special kind: they were reformed Benedictines of the “free church†of Brittany (Bretagne) and they practised the Celtic Rite. These monks were master craftsmen of all trades: architects, bridge-builders, painters, carpenters, woodcarvers, goldsmiths, blacksmiths, stonemasons, etc. However they left no marks that could identify them as such because they worked in absolute humility and solely for the glorification of God. For this reason, their masterpieces were often attributed to other, more ‘visible’, craftsmen. |
i.e. the Tironensians did the hard work, then the Benedictines moved in and took over.
Kil part of Kilwinning, Kilmarnock, Kilbride etc. = cil = cell = Culdee.
Were the Culdees the earliest Christians in Ireland and Scotland?
Was the Roman Church making these "Western Fringe" groups an offer they couldn't refuse? Accept a takeover and new Roman-style management. Or be shut down.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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Bernard de Tiron ,
Heinrich II of Austria,
Albrecht II,
etc
It looks like we have a pattern emerging.
Every few years (give or take a 100), someone would get sick of the Benedictines & Co and start a reformation of some kind.
They'd establish a new monastery or even lots of monasteries ...
| Just a few years after their establishment at Tiron, the monks of Bernard, were invited by David I to settle in Scotland at Selkirk (Selecherche) in the Ettrick Forest, near the English border where, in 1113, the French Tironensians inaugurated their first abbey in ‘Scotia’. By 1115, having gained the respect of the nobility and royalty in France, England and Scotland, the monks of Tiron already owned 12 abbeys and 28 priories in 22 parishes. By the end of the 12th century they controlled a total of 117 priories and abbeys in France and the British Isles. |
| Known for their building skills and Celtic spirit, the Tironensian monks had quickly become the preferred monastic order of David I, most likely because they offered a suitable alternative to the old Culdee Church of Scotland, allowing for the bridging of the Romanish and Celtic rites. Besides, there were undeniable similarities - legal, ritual, artistic, and political – between the Irish, Scots, Welsh, and Bretons. |
Which must have got right up the Benedictine noses. But (it looks like) the Benedictines bided their time and waited until they had an opportunity to take these breakaways back under control?
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | We need to hear more about these 'pseudo-Scottish monks'. |
Agreed. What was Henry II of Austria thinking of? Is it possible he was in the same role as Frederick III, Elector of Saxony? Protecting some local Reformation.
| Mick Harper wrote: | | Since, as far as I know, nothing had been coming out of Scotland, even by orthodox standards, since the seventh/eighth centuries (Duns Scotus apart) these are clearly anomalous. |
Should I take it that Duns Scotus gets a faintly favourable mention because of William of Ockham? Who is said to have "incorporated much of the work of some previous theologians, especially Duns Scotus"
| The doctrines for which he is best known are the "univocity of being," that existence is the most abstract concept we have, applicable to everything that exists; the formal distinction, a way of distinguishing between different aspects of the same thing; and the idea of Haecceity. |
Haecceity might well be the original term for something now commonplace in Information Technology, the existence of Class and Attributes.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Should I take it that Duns Scotus gets a faintly favourable mention because of William of Ockham? |
No, I was just striving for pedantic accuracy. I know nothing of the gent though he sounds like an interesting gent. But of Hecate I would also like to hear more.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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On a more light-hearted theme, the Hiberno-Scottish mission neatly solves another riddle.
How come Sean Connery (with a distinctly Shcottish accent) could validly play the part of William of Baskerville in "The Name Of The Rose" by Umberto Eco.
The solution is that he (William) was rightly a monk from Scotland. It is a historical murder mystery set in an Italian monastery, in the year 1327.
William of Baskerville alludes both to Sherlock Holmes and to William of Ockham , of "Occam's Razor" fame, much applied and admired by some scholars of Applied Epistemology.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Hatty wrote: |
The reference to Regensburg sounds an alarm. Regensburg is one of those strategical, political and cultural highlights of the Carolingian/Dark Age with of course an immense library stuffed with manuscripts. There were good reasons to establish a working pedigree
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Yep these are later continental workings.
My favourite so far https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorius_Augustodunensis
Very little is known of his life. He says that he is Honorius Augustodunensis ecclesiae presbyter et scholasticus, but nothing else is known. "Augustodunensis" was taken to mean Autun, but that identification is now generally rejected. However, there is no solid reasoning for any other identification (such as Augst near Basle, Augsburg in Swabia, or Augustinensis, from St Augustine's Abbey at Canterbury), so his by-name has stuck. It is certain that he was a monk and that he travelled to England and was a student of Anselm's for some time. Toward the end of his life, he was in the Scots Monastery, Regensburg, Bavaria, probably living as a recluse. | |
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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The Kil = cell = Culdee doesn't hold water, 'k' is non-existent in the Irish alphabet and 'Culdee' has long since evaporated. Kil = cell would appear not to be a 'native tradition'.
Access to the Atlantic salt trade would obviously be a great benefit. Was Ireland part of a nexus supplying Austria-Germany-Bohemia with the white stuff? Benedictines were involved in the business, for instance another Benedictine abbey at Lambach, half-way between Saltzburg and Linz, on the salt route relocated its monks to Melk Abbey, which would be the starting point of monastic reform in the fifteenth century.
Monks from the Scots monastery at Regensburg, on the Danube, founded the Scots monastery in Vienna along with other houses in salt-deprived central and southern Germany and beyond, linked by salt roads.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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| Hatty wrote: | | The Kil = cell = Culdee doesn't hold water, 'k' is non-existent in the Irish alphabet and 'Culdee' has long since evaporated. Kil = cell would appear not to be a 'native tradition'. |
Strange, perhaps that's based on some material I've not found yet? I was labouring under the delusion that Gaelic speakers would understand how they speak the language. I've been told by a Gaelic-speaking historian that:
'K' doesn't exist in Gaelic. But 'c' does and is usually pronounced 'k'.
Gaelic has its own orthography and spelling conventions. So 'C' becomes 'K' in English. |
You can see that in the town names.
And the same again in Dwelly, which even more of an expert on all things Gaelic:
cill -e, cilltean [& cillean] sf Cell, church. 2 Chapel. 3 Churchyard,
burying ground. 4 Grave. 5** Ruddle. 6‡‡ Death. Thug am bàs an cuirp don chill, death has given their bodies to the cemetery. The locative case of Old Irish cell, a church, but in modern Gaelic, a churchyard.
http://www.dwelly.info/index.aspx | |
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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In Ireland, Brigit of Kildare might be a good example.
Her Feast Day is the 1st February - which is Imbolc in the Druid calendar, - marking the beginning of Spring. She founded a monastery Cell Dara “Church of the Oak†(Kildare), on the site of a Druid shrine “served by a group of young women who tended an eternal flameâ€.
Professor Dáithà Ó hÓgáin and others suggest that the saint had been chief druidess at the temple of the goddess Brigid, and was responsible for converting it into a Christian monastery.
| After her death, the characteristics of the goddess became attached to the saint. Many early Christian churches were situated in oak-groves, probably because they were once pagan places of worship. Kildare, where St. Brigid founded her abbey, derives from ‘Cill-dara’, the Church of the Oak. | |
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| She founded a monastery Cell Dara “Church of the Oak†(Kildare), on the site of a Druid shrine “served by a group of young women who tended an eternal flameâ€. |
There is no evidence of a monastery or Druid shrine at Kildare, the earliest church there is later than 1223. The only record was written 1450 (Annals of Innisfallen) almost a thousand years after Brigid's supposed foundation.
Kil may be cell as in 'animal pen'? Perhaps you have found material relating to early Irish churches but no-one else has.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Monks from the Scots monastery at Regensburg, on the Danube, founded the Scots monastery in Vienna along with other houses in salt-deprived central and southern Germany and beyond, linked by salt |
To Coyote these Scriptoriums are continental who recruited....they were not founded by Irish or Scottish monks.
No discerning wannabe Irish King /Tribal leader wants to think the charter they are brandishing has been produced by a Bavarian.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| To Coyote these Scriptoriums are continental who recruited....they were not founded by Irish or Scottish monks. |
Saxony in northern Germany naturally monopolised the Baltic market. For the rest, turning to the 'Celtic fringe' would bypass Saxon territory. There may have been intense rivalry between Saxon and Celtic salt traders or they could have co-operated to keep everyone else out?
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