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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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It's Carnivorous Vulgaris v Accelrati Incredibus.
We have natural cunning, they have speed, neither side can spell.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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April fool! It was water polo.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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It does make you think that Edwin Johnson might have had a point about Benedictine monks, if Johannes Trithemius was a representative.
Johannes is now best known as scribe, lexicographer, cryptograher, occultist and, err, what was it .....Abbot. It seems to me he must have stitched up the dissemination of true learning by the libraries he founded, probaly through the use of picking the precentor, and their assistants the amarius. He seems to have controlled the Word and the associated Monkish copying process from start to finish, from Benedict to, well, Trithemius.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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One way of judging the book is by its cover. When 'Johannes Trithemius' is on the cover, ask yourself who would choose that name. No abbot, that's for sure.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Here's something for you all to do in the dog days of summer. It concerns an episode in British history that I had not hitherto heard of -- is that itself a red flag? And of course it might be true. Either way it will be a good test of our skills -- and a good rest from having to build sandcastles for children who would rather be on their Playstations. I'll start the ball rolling but I'd like help with this sandcastle.
| John Welford on medium wrote: | The Queensberry Plot, 1703 A storm in a teacup resulting from a cheap trick https://medium.com/@johnwelford15/the-queensberry-plot-1703-bafb8392fc3
In March 1703, Queen Anne granted a pardon to all Scottish political offenders who would agree to take the oath to her government. Encouraged by this act of generosity, several of the exiled adherents of the Stuarts availed themselves of this opportunity of returning to their own country for the purposes of stirring up sedition. |
Queen Anne was a Stuart but one knows what John means.
| Among those who took advantage of the new state of affairs was Lord Lovat. Before long, word got around that there was to be a great Highland gathering at Lochaber (western Highlands) early in August, and people were not slow in attributing a political motivation to this event. |
I've heard of the Highland Games of the twentieth century but I'm not familiar with 'great Highland gatherings' in the eighteenth. Anyone?
| Lovat now availed himself of the general feeling of disquietude to gratify a grudge which he had long held against Lord Atholl, the Keeper of the Privy Seal. Having in his possession an unaddressed letter written by the Pretender’s queen to some Scottish noble |
Yup, two red flags for the price of one. Unaddressed letters are not normally in anyone's possession. And the name of the Scottish noble has been 'carefully ignored'.
| he filled in the blank space with the name of Atholl |
"Just got room. Where's that matching ink?"
| and then forwarded the document to the commissioner, the Duke of Queensberry. The latter nobleman, glad of an opportunity of ruining his colleague |
Two noblemen trying to diss the same nobleman. One with a blank letter, one with an entrée to high places.... lucky that.
| sent on the letter unopened to the queen. |
I think Rosencrantz and Guildenstern have strayed into the action.
| Before long, howevÂer, one of Lovat’s friends revealed the deceit |
With friends like that... though actually he is guilty of misprision of treason if he already knew of the plot. No wonder he isn't named either.
| and the chief plotter had to flee to the Continent. As a result of his deception, Queensberry had to quit office, and even then the effects of this movement were not all over. |
The dominoes are falling all over Europe
| In December the queen informed the House of Lords in London that there were French emissaries stirring up rebellion in Scotland, and this body at once began investigating the question on its own account, but without coming to any very definite result. |
Dozy mares.
| Meanwhile, however, the apÂpointment of a committee of inquiry in the House of Lords had wounded the feelings of the Scots, who naturally considered that such a question should be dealt with by their own Privy Council. |
Yes, when investigating conspiracies among Scottish nobles it is better to ask Scottish nobles to investigate.
| At the same time the proceedings of the House of Lords had stirred up indignation nearer home. The Commons discovered in the action of the Peers that this body was assuming powers of criminal inquiry which did not belong to it, and prayed the queen to give orders for the investigation to be carried on by her officers. |
When investigating conspiracies among nobles, it is better etc etc
| Accordingly, when the Scottish Parliament met in January 1704, the queen called on the Privy Council to work out how much truth there was in the suspected plot. |
That would be her Scottish Privy Council, I presume, on account of her being Queen of Scots as well as Queen of England. Surprising she didn't think of that in the first place.
| The answer to that question was that this was all a bit of political point-scoring by aristocrats with little time for each other |
Now I understand why I hadn't heard of it. There was no need for Lord Lovat to flee for his life after all. Ready to return and defend Pegasus Bridge on D-Day.
| and the real danger to the English Crown from a Stuart uprising would only come after 1714, when Queen Anne was succeeded by a new king from Hanover. |
Her being a Stuart and where we came in.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Medium Thrust and Counterthrust
| Mick Harper wrote: | | John, this story is so full of holes -- starting with 'an unaddressed letter' and 'forwarded it without opening it' -- that I am much obliged to you for bringing it to my attention. I will buckle down with my colleagues (huh!) to work out what was really going on. Unless you'd care to help out here http://www.applied-epistemology.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=59684#59684 |
| John Welford wrote: | | Politics doesn't change much, does it? When an opportunity comes along to drop somebody in the soup - however threadbare your evidence - why not grab it with both hands? |
| Mick Harper wrote: | | John, this is not a story about people dropping people in soups. As you say, politics doesn't change much and you do not start making up treasonous plots to do something so trivial. If only because you would be committing treason yourself by doing so and it didn't take much in turn-of-the eighteenth century Britain to get executed for that. This is either totally fabricated to, say, liven up memoirs or it is founded on something that actually happened and is (I would think) an outcropping of the 1715 Jacobite Rising -- or as black propaganda to counter it. |
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Talking of Scottish history, All Things Scottish has posted in Time Team's Facebook group
| Scottish Dalriada is first mentioned in a 10th Century copy of a 7th Century document known as the “Senchus fer n’Alban†(Tradition of the Men of Alba), a military muster list and list of property owners. Among other things, it names three tribes and provides evidence that the first settlement occurred at least by the 3rd Century AD, or even earlier, and was probably in Kintyre. |
According to Wiki the Senchus comprises a list of genealogies in addition to a census
The Senchus fer n-Alban (The History of the men of Scotland) is an Old Irish medieval text believed to have been compiled in the 10th century. It provides genealogies for kings of Dál Riata and a census of the kingdoms which comprised Dál Riata.
The Senchus exists in a number of manuscripts, of which the most important belonged to Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh and then to Edward Lhuyd. This, Ms. H.2.7 held by Trinity College Dublin, was compiled in the 14th century by Lúcás Ó Dalláin, probably working with Seán Mór Ó Dubhagáin (died 1372), the chief poet and historian of the Uà Maine. This manuscript was once thought to have formed part of the Book of Uà Maine, but this is no longer considered plausible. Other examples are found in the Book of Ballymote (1384x1406), the Book of Lecan (before 1418), and in Mac Fhirbhisigh's 17th-century genealogical compilations.[1] It may have been derived from earlier documents of the 7th century which are presumed to have been written in Latin. |
The ownership record for Trinity College Dublin's manuscript only goes back to the seventeenth century, Edward Lhuyd (?1659/60–1709), a Welsh antiquarian and Keeper of the Ashmolean Museum, who is lauded as 'the founding father of early medieval Celtic archaeology' and Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh
| Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh (fl. 1643 – January 1671) was an Irish scribe, translator, historian and genealogist. He was one of the last traditionally trained Irish Gaelic scholars, and was a member of the Clan MacFhirbhisigh, a leading family of northern Connacht. His best-known work is the Leabhar na nGenealach, which was published in 2004 as The Great Book of Irish Genealogies, by Éamonn de Búrca, more than 300 years after it had been written. |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubhaltach_Mac_Fhirbhisigh
Trinity College Dublin claims the earliest manuscript (Ms. H.2.7) is fifteenth century. It still seems implausible that the chronicler would know the names of seventh-century landowners.
References to the mythological origins of 'Dalriada' are similarly late, as late as 1647 according to the Bodleian (MS. Rawl. B. 502).
A query about the historicity of the Senchus received a firm assurance
It was written down by Irish monks from the time. |
which elicited a request for further info | Could you specify the original manuscript for the Senchus and/or name the monastery in which those 'Irish monks' operated? |
The poster responded immediately | From the Chroniclers of Iona and Irish monasteries at the time of St Columba in the 6th Century, and I think in the Irish annals contain entries from earlier. | |
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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You have been put in your place and no mistake. We have reached the stage when the more bare-faced are the fakes, the better the historians like it. I wouldn't mind so much if they were being led up up the rosy path by criminal masterminds but when it is Fast Eddy
| the most important belonged to Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh and then to Edward Lhuyd. |
you have to wonder if they'll ever twig. Even when they twig something is wrong with the provenance, it is just a matter of converting into academese
| but this is no longer considered plausible. |
Still they have had the decency to admit the whole house of cards rests on Irish mist
| It may have been derived from earlier documents of the 7th century which are presumed to have been written in Latin. | |
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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The poster tried to wriggle away when asked why no archaeological traces of a monastery on Iona have been detected
| That's because there wasn't a monastry there at that time, It was a collection of stone built Cells and maybe a small chapel, some of the Cells have been found and we have the life story of St Columba from that time written just after he died. we also have numerous archaelogical remains from other monastic sites from that time as well as all the Forts of the Kingdom of Dalriada. |
Well, it's true archaeologists claimed the remains of a wattle-and-timber hut were evidence that Columba lived, worked, prayed there but even they haven't quite claimed a hut equates to a monastery. It also had to be pointed out that far from the saint's life story being written 'just after he died', the earliest manuscript is dated late 12th/ early 13th century. The question of the Senchus seems to have been dropped.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Cruelty does not become you, dear. Just because you outnumber them thousands to one is not an excuse.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Not forgery exactly but combines the bogosity of the Eisteddfod, with fake stones supplemented by what sounds like rampant vandalism. Or looking at it another way, an admirable piece of local initiative. We are in Wales for our summer hols so there may be opportunities for fact-finding raids.
Tregaron Gorsedd Circle Country: Wales Topic: Modern Sites
Since 2004, the Gorsedd - a society of artists in charge of the Eisteddfod pageantry has used fake fibreglass rocks that are more portable. But Tregaron council wanted something permanent to remember the Eisteddfod's visit in summer 2022. So they tracked down stones from all over Ceredigion to build the circle, donated by farmers and others. http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=58687 | |
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Here's a quickie with a Victorian embellishment tell-tale
Folkestone moot stones Country: England Topic: Date Uncertain
A group of 12 stones that were discovered under steps of town cross, in the churchyard of the local parish church of St Mary and St Eanswythe, when it was refurbished in 1897, here is an article from the local newspaper the Folkestone Express from that time: http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=53024 |
Not sure, it's a moot point. Though I suppose 'Folkestone' means moot stone so it could very well be.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Blimey, what took them so long?
| The village of Glastonbury in Somerset, southwestern England, plans to open a tourism complex at the St. Bride's Mound historical site, discovered to contain the oldest Christian monastic ruins ever found in England. The ruins date back more than 1,500 years to the fifth century AD. |
I should think so too. People will come flocking. to the earliest monastery in England. Pretty quick off the mark, I'd have to say. Normally, you discover something then you put in a proposal, then it goes to the Planning Committee... it's usually years before you've got anything to show..
| Despite the incredible history associated with this first millennium religious site, it remains lightly visited by tourists. This is in part because of a lack of publicity, but also because the 33-acre site where the ruins of the monastery were unearthed hasn’t been developed in any way that would encourage tourism. |
Well, why would it? Nobody would be interested in a few monastery ruins before you discovered it was the earliest monastery in England.
| That will all be changing, however, thanks to a $30 million (£23.6 million) grant given to the town council in Glastonbury from the United Kingdom government's Town Deal local development fund . This government program is meant to encourage economic development in Britain’s small towns, and in this case will do so by helping Glastonbury develop an ancient religious site that helped popularize Christian worship in a region where Celtic or Druidic theology had previously reigned supreme. |
I'm beginning to get the picture. It was the Planning Committee! There was a pot of government development money which they wanted for a 33-acre site which had been sitting empty and forlorn for donkey's, so they found the earliest monastery in England there.
They've got form for this kind of thing. Remember they discovered the holy thorn bush, and Arthur's tomb and the Holy Grail and Joseph of Arimathea's whatsit and... well, no, you probably wouldn't remember, it was back in the thirteenth century. Still, nice to see the old traditions are being kept up.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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There's a series called Hoax airing on R4X. The first one was about -- would you believe -- the botanical version of 'twitching': the discovery of plants never recorded on British soil before. The academic expert on the subject was caught, dibbler in hand, introducing them himself! https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001psq6
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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This week's cautionary tale illustrates a theme first taken up in THOBR
However there is one particular circumstance that does lead to this ‘missing link’ being found. Were the general public, bless them, to take an interest and start to protest at this ludicrous situation one or other of the cat species is sure to be ruled in.
“Extra! Extra! Ancestral Cat Found in Natural History Museum Basement." |
This doesn't involve fakes (necessarily) but supports our view that a properly organised academic subject should be devoting considerably more resources to the boring examination of stuff it has got rather than the exciting search for new stuff. Not that this was boring
| In 1896, two British archaeologists were digging in Oxyrhynchus, Egypt, and came upon garbage dumped from the 3rd through 7th centuries. It included biblical manuscripts that had been thrown out by some local Christians. Thousands of boxes of ancient trash were taken back to England, to be sorted out over the next centuries. This would become known as the ‘Oxyrhynchus Papyri’. |
What happened next?
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