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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Well proof only exists until a refutation from the next generation comes along, if it's a few generations then it has withstood the test of time, albeit with a lot of refinements, before finally collapsing. This is why Wiley reckons that the short term job is to look for dying paradigms, which only exist on the basis of increasingly bizarre eplanations, and to look for alternatives which offer interesting, exciting (to me), interlinked ideas that could be the basis of a new paradigm. Being right and accurate is just not important at the start. Because you (actually I mean me) cannot "prove it" .
I think our disagreement is that while I see that interesting interlinked, as the early aim, you are setting much higher standards? Unfortunately this isn't my skillset. I do what I like, creative interlinked inventions, that draws on work from other crazies. Nothing wrong with that is there? Agreed not much exists for long on Planet Wiley.
I think I also disagree with Ish a bit, not sure, in the sense that I think it's the job of the future generations bless em, if we are still around, to both build up, and then rip down, all paradigms including AE ones.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Well proof only exists until a refutation from the next generation comes along |
I don't think this is how it happens. Old theories are seldom refuted, they are just replaced by ones supposedly better.
| if it's a few generations then it has withstood the test of time, albeit with a lot of refinements, before finally collapsing. |
They don't collapse. They are replaced.
| This is why Wiley reckons that the short term job is to look for dying paradigms, which only exist on the basis of increasingly bizarre eplanations, and to look for alternatives which offer interesting, exciting (to me), interlinked ideas that could be the basis of a new paradigm. |
Agreed | Being right and accurate is just not important at the start. Because you (actually I mean me) cannot. |
| I think our disagreement is that while I see that interesting interlinked, as the early aim, you are setting much higher standards? |
I don't think so. I use the same general technique but maybe I attach 'proved' using a higher standard.
| Unfortunately this isn't my skillset. I do what I like, creative interlinked inventions, that draws on work from other crazies. Nothing wrong with that is there? |
Nope, me too.
| I think I also disagree with Ish a bit, not sure, in the sense that I think it's the job of the future generations bless em, if we are still around, to both build up, and rip down, all paradigms including AE ones. |
Agreed but you still haven't explained why your brain considers them 'proved' when 'you can't prove them though'.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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It seems obvious to me that it happened like this. Can't prove it though. |
It neatly slots in with the other stuff. Very happy (until this evening or Hats posts up a Wiley ignoral).
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Ah well, that can be a fruitful method. Hats and I came to a conclusion about Anglo-Saxon Christianity not existing which allows us to dismiss evidence, archaeological or historical, about anything claiming to be Anglo-Saxon and Christian, without having to prove it every time. Though we can if we are called upon. So far...
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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The lack of archaeological evidence for Anglo-Saxon monasteries led to questioning the existence of a Classical canon. Many ancient texts were supposed to have been transcribed and copied from the 'lost original' by Anglo-Saxon scribes or produced in various monastic libraries across Europe that, as in Britain, left no trace.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I knew it was one way round or the other, Hatty keeps me honest in these things. But the point is you can use a conclusion you have reached in a small thing to lever your way into a big thing. That is the great weakness of academia. Because they all have to be saying the same thing, they rely on these connections themselves so once you start, as it were, doing it backwards, whole areas start coming apart at the seams.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Hatty wrote: | | The lack of archaeological evidence for Anglo-Saxon monasteries led to questioning the existence of a Classical canon. Many ancient texts were supposed to have been transcribed and copied from the 'lost original' by Anglo-Saxon scribes or produced in various monastic libraries across Europe that, as in Britain, left no trace. |
Accuracy and checking are not within the Wiley skillset. I had to contract Rory to write a book "Citadel of the Saxons" to see if it was a case of time or space. He is actually very good at this type of work. It certainly was not his fault that I stubbornly insisted on a Wiley reading that concluded he was wrong. I have just reorganised his evidence (incredibly thorough investigation if very limited, as is always the case of academic Dark Age stuff, chock full with over dating, and over inference, with obligatory caveat, to guard against future unhelpful finds....) to suit my own unproven conclusion. So sadly, no surprise conversion of Wiley to orthodoxy.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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AE totally relies on others doing the donkey work. This is another weakness of academia. It is so relentless in its pursuit of pedantic accuracy that individual practitioners are obliged to specialise in the most incredibly narrow areas of study and never stray from it in their entire working lives. An academic subject consists of this work being added together.
Nobody is tasked with -- indeed you wouldn't be allowed to -- step back and review the wider picture. That's down to us and why it is so easy-peasy.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | It is so relentless in its pursuit of pedantic accuracy that individual practitioners are obliged to specialise in the most incredibly narrow areas of study and never stray from it in their entire working lives. Nobody is tasked with -- indeed you wouldn't be allowed to -- step back and review the wider picture. That's down to us and why it is so easy-peasy. |
Rory does signal his wider weltanschaang along the way. Whilst always standing on the shoulders of others etc, he is always up for hinting at, dare I say it, a tantalisingly modern, metrpolitan Rory Dark Age. It's Rory's job to see the gold in the gloom....this makes for an enthralling contrast that drives the narrative forward.
No? OK. Just my reading.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I was listening to a play on t'wireless about 'Barbara Allen' and the BBC announcer said, as an aside, the ballad was mentioned by Samuel Pepys in his diaries. This got my nostrils twitching so I sent off an email to a coupla folk musicologists I happen to be related to (lucky them)
"The earliest known texts of Barbara Allen date from the mid-18th century, but we know that the song was much older than that, as Samuel Pepys, who was an enthusiastic amateur ..." Wiki
As you know my thesis requires the Diaries to be written in the early 1800’s by people trying to add a bit of mid-1600’s colour (Barbara Allen is supposed to be English Civil War?) so they might cite the ballad for that reason. Or it might be a smoking gun for me. Advise. Mick |
They replied
(1) Not one of my favourites, probably because we sang it at school and because it has become so ubiquitous. Obviously very old but there doesn't appear to be a written record of it before the diary. This, of course, adds weight to your theory but doesn't really prove anything because its origins could well date back to the 1600's. So I can't really help you other than that. You need to head to Cecil Sharp House (if it still exists).
(2) Yes, we also had it at school. In fact I think we had to write it out at O level. For my money it has the feel of a later rather than earlier tune, not at all modal. Suspiciously easy to harmonise. Don’t know about the text. |
To my amateur (oh, yes, I'm not ashamed to admit it) ears Barbara Allen is an obviously Tin Pan Alley sheet music song written for the newly emerging (1790's) market consisting of young gals sitting at drawing room pianos showing off their attractions to beaux. Since it is supposed to be set in the English Civil War the compilers of the Pepys Diaries included it, assuming it was ye olde folk song.
If it can be proved it isn't, we're home and dry. But let me have your thoughts. No voice mails, please, I'm not your beau. Oh, all right, a quick fumble when mama has retired.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Ballads themselves were also forged.
One of the earliest Ballad collections was " A Book of Roxburghe Ballads."
| It consisted of 1,341 broadside ballads from the seventeenth century, mostly English, originally collected by Robert Harley, 1st Earl of Oxford and Mortimer (1661–1724), later collected by John Ker, 3rd Duke of Roxburghe. |
This was printed in 1847 by an old disreputable aquaintance of Hats, John Payne Collier. Collier is better known for his Shakespeare by AE, but ballads were another Collier speciality.
| wiki wrote: | | He used ancient paper and wrote on the pages with a rare ink which has proved to be very enduring |
The whole English Literature resource was corrupted by forgeries, from top to bottom, it's just later folks have been more concerned about exposing fake Shakespearin scholarhip.
| During the later 18th century, literary forgeries had a certain esteem, when audacious impostures like the De Situ Britanniae, the pseudo-Ossian, the medieval poems of Thomas Chatterton, or the works of William Henry Ireland might carry their own worth, and capture the romantic imagination. The case of Collier, in the mid-19th century, was different, because it was profoundly shocking to the scholarly establishment to discover that a long-established colleague in their midst, a person closely associated with the British Museum, the editor of numerous important editions, with privileged access to the primary documents of English literature, should become suspected of the systematic falsification of evidence and possibly the mutilation of original materials, especially in relation to William Shakespeare. Much as Sir Edward Dering's forgeries had corrupted the historical record in ways that were then not yet recognized,[28][29] such a presence placed a question-mark over the authenticity of the whole resource, and over the work of other scholars whom he might have misled. | |
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Never mind Hats, your brilliant piece mentions characters and themes straight out of the pages of RevHist
Robert Harley, 1st Earl of Oxford
Ossian
Thomas Chatterton
the scholarly establishment
the British Museum
systematic falsification of evidence
mutilation of original materials
authenticity of the whole resource
other scholars whom he might have misled |
including the breathless news from the Pepys Building
| but there are other remarkable holdings, including over 1,800 printed ballads, one of the finest collections in existence |
... collected by Samuel Pepys. Getaway.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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It's a World Record!
| Ethnomusicologists Steve Roud and Julia Bishop described it as "far and away the most widely collected song in the English language—equally popular in England, Scotland and Ireland, and with hundreds of versions collected over the years in North America." |
Though contrariwise this makes it a stupendously tall mountain for us to climb. As everyone from Luke Skywalker to the gorilla in Mighty Boosh used to say, "I've got a bad feeling about this."
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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We can set up base camp here with the British Library catalogue
Full Record Permalink
Format options: Standard format Summary MARC tags HOLDINGS DETAILS
Record 1 out of 1 No Previous Record No Next Record
ESTC System No. 006142162
ESTC Citation No. R226987
Title Link Barbara Allen’s cruelty: or, The young-man’s tragedy.
With Barbara Allen’s lamentation for her unkindness to her lover, and herself.
To the tune of Barbara Allen.
Licensed according to order.
Variant title Link Young-man’s tragedy
Publisher/year Link [London] :
Printed for P[hilip]. Brooksby J[onah]. Deacon. J[osiah]. Blare J[ohn]. Back,
[between 1688 and 1692]
Physical descr. 1 sheet ([1] p.) : ill. (woodcuts) ; obl. 1â°.
General note Publication date range suggested by Wing.
Verse - "In Scarlet Town where I was bound,".
Variant: misspelling "Brbara" in "To the tune of Barbara Allen."
Uncontrolled note EEBO (Tract supplement ; A2:3(EBB65H[11]))
reproduces a copy with the variant,
identifying the holding library as L, but giving the shelf mark of
one Houghton copy (EBB65H).
Houghton reproduces both of its copies; neither has the variant.
Citation/references Wing (CD-ROM, 1996), B683
Surrogates Available on microfilm. Ann Arbor, Mich. :
UMI, 1998. 1 microfilm reel ; 35 mm. (Early English books;
Tract supplement ; A2:3(EBB65H[11]); A5:2(C.20.f.8[25])).
Loc. of filmed copy L.
MH-H.
Subject Link Ballads, English -- 17th century.
Genre/form Link Broadside poems.
Copies - Brit.Isles Link British Library
Link British Library
Link National Library of Scotland
Link Oxford University, Bodleian Library
Copies - N.America Link Harvard University, Houghton Library
Link Harvard University, Houghton Library
Electronic location English Broadside Ballad Archive ;
{ Source library: British Library (Roxburghe) }
English Broadside Ballad Archive ;
{ Source library: National Library of Scotland }
English Broadside Ballad Archive ;
{ Source library: Houghton Library, Harvard University (copy EBB65H) }
English Broadside Ballad Archive ;
{ Source library: Houghton Library, Harvard University (copy 25242.67) }
http://nrs.harvard.edu/urn-3:FHCL.HOUGH:13047679?buttons=y;
{ Source library: Houghton Library, Harvard University (copy EBB65H (v. 1, no. 11)) }
http://nrs.harvard.edu/urn-3:FHCL.HOUGH:13048040?buttons=y ;
{ Source library: Houghton Library, Harvard University (copy 25242.67 (No. 4)) } |
Seems a bit overwhelming, right? But when you get right down to it, it amounts to a single woodcut with an estimated and unsourced date. And, Wiley, did you spot the name Roxburghe in there?
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