Inventing History : forgery: a great British tradition (British History)

[Wile E. Coyote]

I wondered about Augustus Pugin. He apparently modelled the sovereign's throne on the coronation chair. Maybe did both?

https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/building/cultural-collections/historic-furniture/the-collection/chairs-chairs-chairs/the-sovereigns-throne-/

No. Prefer James.

[Mick Harper]

Yes, I had Pugin on my mind but I'm going with you, at least as far as the Stuarts. Grinling Gibbons is not out of court. The Restoration would need a bit of right royal restorative work, and time and places fit quite well.

[Mick Harper]

Having finished Hilary mantel's Wolf Hall trilogy -- except for the last few pages which I couldn't bear to read -- and embarked on an academic Cromwell bio, I have come to the conclusion that his early life is largely fictional. I don't believe any of the blacksmith's son in Putney stuff, I am doubtful about the 'I was a mercenary soldier' period/rationale and I'm hugely sceptical that he was plucked off the Italian streets on his way from rags to riches.

Since this has little effect (that I can see) on the veracity of his later life and times, I will content myself with some vague admonishments of biographers' (whether fictional or academic) credulousness and a few guesses as to what he really was. I'll start with a choice example of the former but pile in with anything you have to offer.

[Ishmael]

I long-ago came to this conclusion.

All of British History prior to 1812 is largely fictional, and little of what is true happened in Britain. I did not work backward from this conclusion to Cromwell and Boleyn but reached this conclusion on the basis of finding so much reason to doubt virtually everything on the way to Queen Victoria. I've got my doubts regarding much of Victoria and Albert as well.

[Mick Harper]

I know Ishmael, you keep on telling us. Just as you keep on not giving us any reason to agree with you. Or for that matter disagree with you. It's not enough to be on the side of the angels, you have to be an angel.

[Grant]

Was he Wolsey's son?

[Mick Harper]

That's a very good one. According to Holbein's portrait he looks like Orson Welles. Though also like Martin Luther. I may use that as soon as I have convinced myself it was my idea.

[Mick Harper]

Here's what I take to be the official explanation for how Cromwell began his rise. He is, we are told in Italy, and has deserted from the French army after defeat by the Spanish at the Battle of the Garigliano. It comes from 'the contemporary novelist, Bandello' whose account, 'though unauthenticated', is 'credible'. You are the judge whether it is (you have to be over six years old to enter)

1. Cromwell is begging for alms in the streets of Florence.
2. Francesco Frescobaldi is an immensely rich merchant mainly based in London but is on a visit to Florence.
3. Cromwell says, "For the love of God, help me."
4. Frescobaldi observing that C is 'ill-accoutered' but 'showed gentle breeding in his countenance' stops to listen.
5. Learning C is English and a French deserter, Francesco invites Thomas into his house, gives him food, clothes and shelter.
6. And before you know it etc etc

It's not so much the total unlikeliness of the story as why it's there. In RevHist a great deal of attention is given to the 'over-egged provenance' because, strange as it may seem, authentic things tend to have little or no provenance. People tend not to record things, they're just things. It's the bogus ones that need that little extra push.

[Mick Harper]

It sounds to me that Thomas Cromwell was an ordinary London jack-the-lad, with a secondary but not a tertiary education, who had been apprenticed to the Frescobaldi organisation in London where his (obviously genuine) talents got him sufficiently far up the ladder and sufficiently far enough around Europe, so he could set up on his own.

But either way he was an ideal man to be recruited by Cardinal Wolsey who had king's business all over Europe but most especially in Italy. So why all the Putney blacksmith's son stuff? Well, Wolsey himself was a butcher's son from Ipswich so it would seem in the anti-magnate world of the new Tudor regime, being middle class was the way to the top. Even slumming it a bit, for effect. I don't think Wolsey's family served behind the counter.

But let's not kid ourselves, being a butcher (or in Cromwell senior's case a publican, a brewer and a blacksmith) is quite a long way up the social scale. The urban equivalent of yeomanry if not gentry. England has always been run by such people. The toffs, quite sensibly, have always left them to it.

[Wile E. Coyote]

They selected a Thomas, a king's adviser (some early history Italy) who was then martyred, to destroy and replace the cult of an earlier Thomas (early history Italy), a king's adviser who was then martyred creating the wildly successful cult.

It's a circular retelling, rather than linear.

[Mick Harper]

Yes... let's not go off into space before we've acquired the rocket. Apart from having the commonest name in England in common, and being Londoners of humble origin, but with a dash of Italy, and being principal ministers of King Henry who turned against them and put both of them to the sword, I don't think there are any parallels.

[Mick Harper]

If we look at things a different way we'll discover an interesting shortcoming in the historical method. Let's suppose my version of Cromwell's early life is true: what historical evidence would be present and (more crucially) what wouldn't be.

If you're listening to We Other Tudors on Radio 3, you'll be aware that the historical record is surprisingly extensive but unsurprisingly not very complete. Thus we would expect references to the young Cromwell if he was working in London -- or working for Frescobaldis -- but they might not be recognised as such. It's a common enough name and could be missed or dismissed as another Thomas Cromwell if you're not looking for it or not expecting it. But it could perfectly well just fall through the cracks as well.

The major objection though would be if Cromwell had become a major figure by 1535 there would presumably be a wealth of "I knew him when..." stories especially as his rivals at court would be collecting them. Except when...? When was the Italian Job the official version of his life story? Later presumably but how much later would depend on such things as the authenticity of obscure Italian novelists and stuff like that. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that he had to officially be packed off to Italy because nobody knew anything about him. Which would put my secret-son-of-Wolsey theory definitely in play.

But testing alt.history is just not something historians do. They wouldn't know how. They wouldn't even know whether they are allowed to.

[Mick Harper]

Grant, I have entered your theory into the lists here https://medium.com/@mickxharper/have-you-heard-this-one-938bc0ab69a2

[Grant]

Sid says thanks for the credit.

It's an interesting revisionist idea but surely Norfolk, who hated Cromwell and Wolsey, would have used it against him?

Or maybe, as you say, the aristocracy weren't as troubled by ambitious commoners as we are led to believe. Also, the Duke would have had his own illegitimate sons to place in various positions.

[Mick Harper]

I think the general idea is that the connection was secret. The Wolseys weren't the Borgias. Baby Cromwell is farmed out to some family connection and given a good if discreet education. When he comes of age he can be launched under his own name on the mercantile circuit with a bit of discreet help from papa. Here's a revealing snippette rendered in impeccable academese