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Inventing History : forgery: a great British tradition (British History)
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Mick Harper
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They've covered their tracks all right.
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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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Hatty wrote:
There's very little evidence that the Tironensian Order actually existed.


I'm open to being persuaded, perhaps, so was it just a rebranding of the Benedictines then? Or a splinter group?

The Wikipedia page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tironensian_Order

gives Monastic Wales as the source of the claim that:

The Tironensian Order / Order of Tiron had its origins in the forest of Craon, on the borders of Brittany and Maine. There, Bernard of Tiron (d. 1117), a Benedictine monk, joined fellow ascetics, Robert of Arbrissel (founder of Fontevault) and Vitalis of Mortain (founder of Savigny), to live as hermits. New recruits arrived and by 1109 Bernard had established the Order of Tiron near Chartres, N. France.


https://www.monasticwales.org/order/6

Oooh, Hermits and Chartres. Echoes of TME?

But then I can't see where it gets this bit from:

In Scotland, the Tironensians were the monks and master craftsmen who built and occupied (until the Reformation) the abbeys of Selkirk (later re-located to Kelso) (1128), Arbroath (1178), Kilwinning (1140+), and Lindores Abbey, Newburgh, Fife.


Was it was a cover story for something the Benedictines were up to? Or if not the Benedictines, who was it?

Until the Tironensian brand name disappeared in another corporate take-over.

In France, the order was integrated into the new Benedictine Congregation of St Maur in 1627.

Wossat?

At the end of the 16th century the Benedictine monasteries of France had fallen into a state of disorganization and laxity. In the Abbey of St. Vanne near Verdun a reform was initiated by Dom Didier de la Cour, which spread to other houses in Lorraine, and in 1604 the reformed Congregation of St. Vanne was established, the most distinguished members of which were Ceillier and Calmet. A number of French houses joined the new congregation; but as Lorraine was still independent of the French crown, it was considered desirable to form on the same lines a separate congregation for France. Thus in 1621 was established the famous French Congregation of St. Maur.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_of_Saint_Maur

You boys have had enough.
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Hatty
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Boreades wrote:
The Wikipedia page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tironensian_Order

gives Monastic Wales as the source of the claim that:

The Tironensian Order / Order of Tiron had its origins in the forest of Craon, on the borders of Brittany and Maine. There, Bernard of Tiron (d. 1117), a Benedictine monk, joined fellow ascetics, Robert of Arbrissel (founder of Fontevault) and Vitalis of Mortain (founder of Savigny), to live as hermits. New recruits arrived and by 1109 Bernard had established the Order of Tiron near Chartres, N. France.

https://www.monasticwales.org/order/6

The contents of the Abbey of Tiron's cartulary are somewhat chaotic ('un peu pêle-mêle') and no foundation charter has come to light. The foundation story itself is from the Life of St Bernard of Tiron, Vita Bernardi Tironiensis, posthumously written by a fat monk (rather inappropriately for an ultra-ascetic order) Geoffroy le Gros, that was first discovered in the cartulary after the 1627 takeover. Unfortunately the original manuscript is lost.


But then I can't see where it gets this bit from:

In Scotland, the Tironensians were the monks and master craftsmen who built and occupied (until the Reformation) the abbeys of Selkirk (later re-located to Kelso) (1128), Arbroath (1178), Kilwinning (1140+), and Lindores Abbey, Newburgh, Fife.

Was it was a cover story for something the Benedictines were up to? Or if not the Benedictines, who was it?

Judging by the deeds, acts, privileges etc. Tiron seems to have been dependent on the Counts of Blois/Chartres. The regional geo-politics of northern France/Flanders are convoluted but Burgundy is involved as well as England, Wales and Scotland.

Theobald the Great (Thibaut de Blois) (1090–1152) was Count of Blois and of Chartres as Theobald IV from 1102 and was Count of Champagne and of Brie as Theobald II from 1125. Theobald held Auxerre, Maligny, Ervy, Troyes, and Châteauvillain as fiefs from Duke Odo II of Burgundy.

Theobald was a grandson of William the Conqueror and Matilda of Flanders. His mother, Adela, was also the mother of Stephen, King of England and Henry of Blois, Bishop of Winchester

Theobald was the son of Count Stephen II of Blois and Adela of Normandy, and the elder brother of King Stephen of England.

Theobald of Blois was offered the English throne but it was seized by Stephen of Blois, the younger bro. One of Theobald's sons, Hugh, became a monk at Tiron Abbey and was abbot of St Benet of Holme, Norfolk, until returning to France in 1155 after the death of his uncle Stephen.
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Hatty
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A Greek herbal by Dioscorides, De Materia Medica, purportedly written in 50-70 (A.D.), was 'completed in Constantinople around 512 AD' and 'Englished' by John Goodyer in 1655. Hang about...even though the herbal is hailed as "one of the most famous books on pharmacology and medicine', it took over a millennium to translate into English? Unless, more plausibly, Goodyer worked from a copy discovered in Constantinople in the 1550s - 1580s by a Flemish herbalist, writer and diplomat called Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq.

Busbecq was employed by the Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand I as ambassador to the Ottoman Empire

He was an avid collector, acquiring valuable manuscripts, rare coins and curios of various kinds. Among the best known of his discoveries was a 6th-century copy of Dioscorides' De Materia Medica, a compendium of medicinal herbs. The emperor purchased it after Busbecq's recommendation; the manuscript is now known as the Vienna Dioscorides.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogier_Ghiselin_de_Busbecq

A familiarly fishy tale so far but more interesting still is that Busbecq is also the person responsible for discovering 'Crimean Gothic'

The existence of a Germanic dialect in Crimea is noted in a number of sources from the 9th century to the 18th century. However, only a single source provides any details of the language itself: a letter by the Flemish ambassador Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq, dated 1562 and first published in 1589, gives a list of some eighty words and a song supposedly in the language.

No-one seems able to make their minds up whether Crimean Gothic, whose source is based on a letter dated 1562, is afiliated to Ulfilas' Gothic, whose sole source is the Ulfilas Bible.

While the initial identification of this language as "Gothic" probably rests on ethnological rather than linguistic grounds — that is, the speakers were identified as Goths, and therefore the language must be Gothic — it appears to share a number of distinctive phonological developments with the Gothic of Ulfilas' Bible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic
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Mick Harper
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This is potentially incredibly important. For those duffers at the back of the class, the sole -- you heard it right, the one and only -- piece of scientific evidence for the existence of any Christological material from the period before c 1000 AD is the Ulfilas Bible, which the Swedes claim they carbon-dated to the fourth century but about which they seem immensely coy when it comes to providing details.

As for the Gothic language itself, it's about as old as Gothenburg (built by the Dutch in the sixteenth century).

PS Never mind it taking a thousand years to translate the Materia Medica into English, what is their explanation for it taking five hundred years to complete? That's longer than Ishmael takes.
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Hatty
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Never mind it taking a thousand years to translate the Materia Medica into English, what is their explanation for it taking five hundred years to complete?

Strangely, no complete English translation of the Dioscurides' herbal, aka the Juliana Anicia Codex [JAC], exists. But

it was also translated into Arabic, Persian, Latin and other languages, and the JAC became the model for most
herbals of the West.

The earliest Arabic translation was eleventh century, dated 1083 by Leiden University; its provenance is via a Dutch diplomat-collector, strangely reminiscent of Bousbecq, the Flemish discoverer of the Materia Medica

In the seventeenth century it was acquired in Turkey by the Dutch diplomat and manuscript collector Levinus Warner, who bequeathed it to Leiden University.

The five hundred years' gap is covered with the usual 'numerous copies were made' claim except in this case the copies were revisions, or recensions as academics call them, with illustrations and alphabetical listings which the original lacked... somewhat perplexing since the original is 'lost'.

Although the original text of Dioscorides herbal has never been found, numerous manuscripts of his work (mostly illustrated) were reproduced between 2nd and 15th century AD; however, unlike the original, they contain alphabetically listed plants that have been used for therapy.

The first Greek version was published in 1499 and the first Latin version in 1516.

As well as being the "oldest illustrated and most valuable document in the history of pharmaceutical and herbal writing", the JAC holds another world record

Some images were probably derived from earlier versions now lost to history. The frontis section of the manuscript contains a portrait of Princess Juliana honoured as a religious devotee and patron of the arts of the town of Honorata. This is the earliest donor portrait in an extant manuscript illumination.

There are also two paintings of Dioscorides and portraits of then famous physicians and philosophers.

It's unusual to find books with frontispieces showing portraits before the fifteenth-sixteenth century.
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Hatty
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Mick Harper wrote:
...the Ulfilas Bible, which the Swedes claim they carbon-dated to the fourth century but about which they seem immensely coy when it comes to providing details.

Which fragments did they date? That's not to say the carbon dating is wrong but who's able to verify the fragments were from the Ulfilas Bible? The only person who 'authenticated' the manuscript was Franciscus Junius [q.v.] and we're not about to take his word for anything

What the Goths left to posterity of literature is a translation of the Bible and moreover very few fragments of text. Even the Bible translation is very fragmentarily preserved: the Silver Bible, a Gospel book, even that in fragments.

According to Wiki, reports of other fragments from the Ulfilas Bible 'have not been substantiated'. There is no record of the original binding, its silver binding (hence its name Codex Argenteus) was produced in 1668-9 on the orders of the Swedish chancellor, Magnus Gabriel De la Gardie, before he presented the bible to the university of Uppsala, of which he was also chancellor. It was in good company

De la Gardie presented the university with a number of priceless manuscripts, including Snorri Sturluson’s Edda and other works of Icelandic literature.

The seventeenth century seems to have been the Scandi Age of Discovery. The most famous work, the Edda, is part of a manuscript called the Codex Regius first mentioned in 1643

The codex was discovered in 1643, when it came into the possession of Brynjólfur Sveinsson, then Bishop of Skálholt, who in 1662 sent it as a gift to King Frederick III of Denmark

So very patriotic.
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Mick Harper
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Which fragments did they date?

Wrong question. Since sixteenth century forgers couldn't have laid their hands on fourth century writing materials it would have to be genuine.
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Hatty
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The carbon tests were reportedly done on the binding threads. The fragments are almost certainly genuine fourth century but there's nothing to connect them to the Ulfilas Bible which has a thousand-year gap in its provenance.
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Mick Harper
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Further to Discorides, this may be informative. Taken from Ten Inventions from Arab Inventors We Were Never Taught About, so allow for liberal special pleading. I'll give the other nine elsewhere, they are mildly riotous.

Al-Zahrawi (936–1013 AD), the greatest surgeon of the Middle Ages, wrote a 30-volume encyclopedia of medical practices, parts of which remained the standard textbooks in Europe for more than five hundreds years. He invented the method of administering anaesthetic to patients by steeping a sponge in medical drugs, and dabbing it in patients’ nostrils and lips, which was called Inhalation Anaesthesia.

He also invented over two hundred surgical instruments, most of which are still in use today, like scalpels, pincers, specula, curettes, lithotrites (for crushing bladder stones) and even the forceps used in extracting a dead fetus. He was the first to perform the migraine surgery and his book, On Surgery and Instruments, was the first illustrated book on surgery ever written. The syringe was invented by the Iraqi surgeon Ammar ibn Ali al-Mawsili in the 9th century, when he hollowed out a glass tube to remove the cataracts from patients’ eyes using the tube’s suction.
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Hatty
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Al-Zahrawi was known as 'the father of surgery' according to Wiki though his surgical treatise remained unpublished until the twelfth century, first translated by Gerard of Cremona, a member of the Toledo School of Translators. This 'school' was allegedly responsible for producing works translated from Arabic and Greek into Latin, including Ptolemy's Almagest "from Arabic texts found in Toledo". Just lying around waiting, were they?

Al-Zahrawi's book, Al-Tasreef ('the Method of Medicine') consisted of 30 volumes, more like an encyclopaedia than a medical textbook

His surgical teachings were the most advanced in the Middle Ages until the thirteenth century.

Al-Tasreef was an essential component of the medical curriculum in European countries for many centuries. The famous French surgeon Guy de Chauliac (1300–1368) quoted him over 200 times in his book appended its Latin edition to his own book on surgery. Several editions of this book (surgical chapters) were published including one at Venice (1497), at Basel (1541) and at Oxford (1778).

The last sentence would appear to indicate that no further advances were made in this field for at least three hundred years. Indeed, Wiki asserts that Al-Zahrawi had produced 'the standard textbook for the next five hundred years' and, less confidently, that it was still being read in the late 1800s [citation needed]. Foreign doctors seem to have been considered better than their native counterparts, at least by European heads of state.
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Mick Harper
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Foreign doctors seem to have been considered better than their native counterparts

This presumptively is why European writers were always passing off their own works as being the 'latest from Toledo' or 'by Ancient Greeks preserved in Constantinople' (and liberated by its fall). We writers call it 'hiding it over a bushel'.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Samuel Pepys wrote a diary. Rather mysteriously, he was then both an actor as well as a recorder of miraculous events. Take the Great Fire of London. He is awakened by his maid, Jane, at 3 am with news of the fire, he first shrugs this off, returns to bed (tension builds) then, realising the seriousness of the situation, travels to the Palace of Whitehall to tell Charles II that the city is on fire (nobody else has) and then advises on the pulling down of houses to stop the fire.

The fire, which broke out in the house of the King’s baker, (right) Thomas Farynor, early in the morning of Sunday 2 September, decimated four-fifths of the city: over 13,200 houses, 87 parish churches, 52 Livery Company Halls, the Guildhall, the Royal Exchange and St Paul’s Cathedral all burnt down.

How many people died? 6. That's right just 6 people.
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Mick Harper
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You're not seriously suggesting the Pepys Diaries are fakes, perpetrated by a cabal of Cambridge University colleges down on their luck in the first part of the nineteenth century, are you? Have a care, sir, forums have ears.
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Ishmael


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Let be known that I was the first member of our distinguished community to cast aspersions upon the diaries.
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