MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Inventing History : forgery: a great British tradition (British History)
Reply to topic Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 80, 81, 82 ... 178, 179, 180  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Someone from a British Medieval History group assured me that Canterbury did indeed have a tradition of embroidery in the ninth, tenth and eleventh centuries. I've requested some examples of this but not heard anything more.

Meanwhile another member posted a link on the subject. Nothing about a 'Canterbury School' but some points of interest, especially this passage

Only three great embroideries survive from the Anglo-Saxon period. The Bayeux Tapestry is the largest at 70m. The Durham embroideries were designed during the early 10th century and were discovered in the tomb of St Cuthbert. The collection has an embroidered stole, maniple and a girdle, which are closely related in design and are embroidered with gold and silk threads on silk fabric. They are thought to be Southern English work and the first two items have inscriptions to show when they were commissioned between 909 and 916.

The third embroidery from this period comprises of gold thread and silk on linen. The pieces that survive are thought to have been commissioned for an altar frontal decoration. This embroidery is influenced by Anglo-Saxon art from The Book of Cerne and the Brunswick Casket. However, scholars think that they may have a Rhine-Meuse origin that is, in fact, influenced by Anglo-Saxon art.

https://scribbling-inthemargins.blogspot.com/2013/09/embroidery-in-11th-century.html

There are surprisingly few examples and a good deal of speculation. Can't really build much of a case for the existence of English Dark Age tapestry work with such weak material.
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

The Durham embroideries were designed during the early 10th century and were discovered in the tomb of St Cuthbert.

Wha-a-a-a? They only opened the coffin in 1107. They only built the cathedral in ... Hatty, we shall need the official timeline for coffin, body, tomb, embroideries and cathedral(s). Not necessarily in that order. In fact since they were all created at the same time I suppose it could be in any order. I wonder if St Cuthbert's Gospels was found on the embroideries, under the embroideries or between the embroideries. No, wait, the Gospel Book was in the coffin not the tomb. I get so confused. Hatty, hurry up with that timeline.

the first two items have inscriptions to show when they were commissioned between 909 and 916.

Rather like those slabs down the road at Jarrow with dates inscribed on them to show when the monastery was built. Always a comfort. This I think would be yet another world record: earliest embroidery with a known date of manufacture. Technically, the first two pieces of embrodery with etc etc. Gold and Silver medals. Yet another triumph for dear old us. Plus, there'll be no need to scientifically date them.
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Durham Cathedral site says Cuthbert's coffin containing the St Cuthbert Gospel and embroidered garments was opened in 1104 but the garments, a gift from King Athelstan according to Durham's website, were discovered in 1827. The jewelled cross also found inside "is thought to have belonged to the saint".

The silk garments have deteriorated a bit unsurprisingly as they "were probably added in the 930s and given by King Athelstan" but fortunately removed from the coffin in 1827

In 1827, the coffin of St. Cuthbert was opened, and in it were found, among other items (including the famous St. Cuthbert Gospel), the remains of a stole and maniple. The garments are nowadays recognised as the oldest extant medieval examples of English embroidery in the country.

They explain the stole and maniple (mantle) "are very similar and clearly belong together". The silk background has been replaced though it's hard to explain how the embroidery has survived so well.


The back of both garments carry the same two lines of text (in translation), "Aelflaed ordered this to be made", and "for the pious bishop Frithstan". Aelflaed was the second wife of Edward the Elder, King of Wessex and the son of Alfred the Great. She died in 916. Frithstan was the Bishop of Winchester between 909 and 929. The two garments from St. Cuthbert's tomb would therefore have been made between 909 and 916.

The two garments were probably presented to St. Cuthbert's shrine, then at Chester-le-Street just north of Durham, when King Aethelstan, son of Edward the Elder and step-son of Aelflaed, whose capital was at Winchester, paid a visit to the shrine in 934 and donated a number of garments, including a stole with a maniple.

Needless to say, the only written reference to 'Bishop Frithstan' is in Bede.

Historians have concluded that Cuthbert's garments were made in Winchester, Durham's cathedral not being completed until 1140, which gave rise to the so-called Winchester style
though the origin of their style is a puzzle


It is true that English embroidery was high quality, just not at this period.

Opus Anglicanum or English work is fine needlework of Medieval England done for ecclesiastical or secular use on clothing, hangings or other textiles, often using gold and silver threads on rich velvet or linen grounds. Such English embroidery was in great demand across Europe, particularly from the late 12th to mid-14th centuries and was a luxury product often used for diplomatic gifts.
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

You laugh, I'll cry.
Send private message
Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
View user's profile
Reply with quote

I am also struggling to find this 11th century anglo saxon tradition of tapestry. Let alone a tradition that contains a...... linear narrative.

The only tapestry candidate so far is that depicting the deeds of Ealdorman Byrhtnoth. The Liber Eliensis (Book of Ely) records that Brythnoth's widow gave the Cathedral a tapestry or hanging celebrating said deeds. Byrhtnoth is known today for his tragic death at the Battle of Maldon. The tapestry is lost but helpfully there is a surviving 325 line fragment of Old English poetry.........

Unfortunately the original manuscript has also been lost (damn) by fire

The manuscript, by now detached, was burned in the Cotton library fire at Ashburnham House in 1731. The keeper of the collection, John Elphinstone (or his assistant, David Casley),[4] had transcribed the 325 lines of the poem in 1724, but the front and back pages were already missing from the manuscript (possibly around 50 lines each): an earlier catalogue described it as fragmentum capite et calce mutilatum ("mutilated at head and heel"). As a result, vital clues about the purpose of the poem and perhaps its date have been lost.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Maldon
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

It's illuminating that tapestry/embroidery gets compared to, indeed is claimed to be inspired by, illustrated manuscripts of the time.

They are indeed comparable. The covers of gospel books as we noted are missing (looted they say) so the bindings are modern, relatively. Ditto backs of embroideries, due to deterioration, so they too are substituted. If a painting's wooden panel were replaced, could art historians trace provenance?
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

The manuscript, by now detached

Yes, they generally are. It keeps things simple.

was burned in the Cotton library fire at Ashburnham House in 1731
.
Yes, they generally are. Such a shame we’ll never be able to consult the originals. Or indeed, technically speaking, whether there were any originals.

The keeper of the collection, John Elphinstone (or his assistant, David Casley),[4] had transcribed the 325 lines of the poem in 1724,

Yes, they generally are. It’s as if they knew there was going to be a fire.

but the front and back pages were already missing from the manuscript (possibly around 50 lines each):

Yes, they generally are. Text is known and can easily be ... er .... transcribed. Fronts and backs are a bit more difficult. It's all itemised in Forgeries.

an earlier catalogue described it as fragmentum capite et calce mutilatum ("mutilated at head and heel").

Yes, they generally are. The catalogue telling us exactly what has been ... er ... transcribed always survives the fire. In case there was any doubt.

As a result, vital clues about the purpose of the poem and perhaps its date have been lost.

Yes, they generally are.
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

One thing that seemed incontrovertible was no manuscript before, say, the late 1300s would contain ultramarine made from lapis lazuli or lazurite on the grounds that the source, Afghanistan, was a stretch too far.

Seems lazurite was being used much earlier than had been believed

Seven important and valuable Anglo‐Saxon manuscripts of the 8–11th centuries and held at the British Library, London, were analysed by Raman microscopy in order to establish and compare their palettes. They are the Vespasian Psalter (Cotton MS Vespasian A1), Harley MS 7653, the Royal Prayer Book (Royal MS 2 A xx), the Royal Bible (Royal MS 1E vi), the Eadui Psalter (Arundel MS 155), the Grimbald Gospels (Add. MS 34890) and the Psychomachia by Prudentius (Cotton Cleopatra C viii). The overall palette of the manuscripts studied includes carbon, indigo, lazurite, orpiment, red lead, red ochre, verdigris, vergaut and white lead.

Lazurite appears not to have been used until 920 AD and vermilion until the 12th century. Chalk and gypsum appear occasionally, probably as extenders, with gold and sometimes silver used to illuminate the most expensive manuscripts. Raman microscopy proves to be a very effective technique for the identification of inorganic pigments on manuscripts, and is much more reliable than optical microscopy.

The Vespasian Psalter is dated by the British Library
2nd quarter of the 8th century-c 1480

A nightmare to date due to multiple insertions and additions, some made by Eadwig or 'Eadui' Basan after whom the Eadui Psalter, also in the list, is named

Eadwig Basan, monk of Christ Church, Canterbury, made further additions in the early eleventh century


Assuming the wielders of Raman spectroscopes are right, could they be persuaded to do further analysis of other materials in manuscripts such as ink? Would it work with embroidery?
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

One thing that seemed incontrovertible was no manuscript before, say, the late 1300s would contain ultramarine made from lapis lazuli or lazurite on the grounds that the source, Afghanistan, was a stretch too far. Seems lazurite was being used much earlier than had been believed

Question: When did Afghan pigments reach western Europe?
Answer: Late 1300's.
Q: What about the Pygmalion Psalter?
A: Ah, must have been earlier than we thought, probably the 1100's.
Q: What about the Phonium Psalter?
A: Ah, must have been even earlier than we thought, probably the 800's.

When all this has settled down, reached the textbooks and been taught to a generation of academics
Q: What's the date of the Incredipolis Psalter?
A: Must be pre 800, they're still using woad when we know lapis lazuli was widely available in Western Europe for high status products.
Send private message
Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Not sure.

Lapis lazuli or lazurite might have been traded down the silk road.

If you reckon long distance trade took place along this road during Roman times or before it seems to me it's possible.
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Nobody is doubting lapis lazuli might have been used at any time. There are lazurite mines in Italy.
Send private message
Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Hang on, ortho denies there is any ancient source other than Afghanistan, the Italian mines are recent.....last three hundred years.

Are you sure.
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

No, not at all. My interest in the subject is merely that (it would seem) the bright blue of lapis burst on the West European illuminated manuscript scene at a certain date, and that therefore it is potentially diagnostic of the age of those manuscripts. Hatty will correct me but I think we first got interested because one purportedly eighth century manuscript we were investigating was claimed by academic A to have lapis when academic B was claiming that lapis wasn't imported into Western Europe until the eleventh century. We couldn't use it because both claims turned out to be a bit flaky.

It's all reminiscent of the maize corncobs carved into the pre-Columban Rosslyn Chapel or the cocaine-suffused mummies of Egypt. Flakiness cuts both ways, and Applied Epistemologists (who get it in the neck from both orthos and crazies) are unwise to depend on such eye-catching examples. For us, remember, the truth is always boring.
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

The reference to the impossibility of lapis lazuli in an 8th C manuscript came from no less an authority than Christopher de Hamel in his Meetings. It was in a footnote in a font size that require a magnifying glass to decode as if to avoid detection.
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

On the matter of dating the Bayeux Tapestry, it would be really helpful to know the first reference to Harold being killed by an arrow in the eye. The manner of his death is arguably the most famous event in his life yet doesn't seem to have been known by his biographers.

The earliest biographies are twelfth and thirteenth century. The anonymous Vita Haroldi (c. 1205) which contains the legend about Harold becoming a hermit is kept at Waltham Abbey

This manuscript tells that he survived the battle, barely, and was able to live under an assumed identity for the rest of his life.

William of Malmesbury wrote that Harold was killed by an arrow wound in the head but it is not regarded by historians as 'a true and factual account'. This is odd because, according to Wiki

William of Malmesbury was the foremost English historian of the 12th century. He has been ranked among the most talented English historians since Bede.

Other accounts of the Battle of Hastings written by various Norman clergymen are quite colourful and have details of Harold's body being buried by the sea and say the corpse was mutilated. Well it would be after dying in battle, wouldn't it. But nary a word about an arrow in the eye.

Wiki article includes some quite astonishing information

Etchings made of the Tapestry in the 1730s show the standing figure with differing objects. Benoît's 1729 sketch shows only a dotted line indicating stitch marks without any indication of fletching, whereas all other arrows in the Tapestry are fletched. Bernard de Montfaucon's 1730 engraving has a solid line resembling a spear being held overhand matching the manner of the figure to the left. Stothard's 1819 water-colour drawing has, for the first time, a fletched arrow in the figure's eye. Although not apparent in the earlier depictions, the Tapestry today has stitch marks indicating the fallen figure once had an arrow in its eye. It has been proposed that the second figure once had an arrow added by over-enthusiastic nineteenth-century restorers that was later unstitched.

It is beginning to look like the arrow in the eye could be a nineteenth-century detail.
Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 80, 81, 82 ... 178, 179, 180  Next

Jump to:  
Page 81 of 180

MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group