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The dolphinitive history of the world (History)
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Hatty wrote:
Either way, porpoise 'farming' would presumably be further north than Phoenicians are wont to be found....


Unless you suspect, as I happen to, that Phoenicia = England.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Hatty wrote:

I wonder if the 'mar' in Marden accounts for the mermaid element.


To my way of thinking in this story the mermaid seems more likely linked to local Maidstone. Not mentioned in the article.

I get the mer=water.

There is a case for marden = mar down

Mar=marsh

The story is about a bell stuck in a marsh.

Do bells act as a flood warning signal?

Naughty mermaid she's been turned up side down.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Mick Harper wrote:
This is crucial in understanding why other 'industrialised' areas like Dartmoor are no longer wooded. The explanation might be simple (no ponies) or it might be complex (geology, supervision of land use, altitude) but it's worth finding out.

It would seem the Vikings are held responsible not only for razing monasteries but forests too according to a New York Times article https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/20/climate/iceland-trees-reforestation.html?smid=fb-share .

In Iceland 'approximately 1,000 years ago' there were trees they say but "within three centuries" there weren't. According to Wiki the ponies (horses) were introduced to the island approximately 1100 years ago by Vikings. Trees thrive on poor soil and in harsh winters, though Iceland has geysers to warm up the soil and enough volcanic ash to sustain plenty of vegetation. Nowadays the lack of trees is blamed on sandstorms rather than Vikings

A half-dozen Exmoor ponies were borrowed by one of our local country parks to manage an overgrown area and they reduced it to scrubby wetland double-quick.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Mick Harper wrote:
It was very industrial in prehistory yet West Sussex is still one of the most wooded counties there is.

This is crucial in understanding why other 'industrialised' areas like Dartmoor are no longer wooded. The explanation might be simple (no ponies) or it might be complex (geology, supervision of land use, altitude) but it's worth finding out.


It might simply reflect that "one of the most wooded counties" brings to mind lots of woods but if the most wooded has less than 20% woods it's not really that wooded.

Deforestation occurs when humans chop down trees. Ponies stop them growing again. If an industry ends during Wiley's "Wood age" then you get a Dartmoor.

These days you get a Kouquan.


https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/gallery/2016/sep/09/chinas-sinking-coal-mine-towns-and-villages-in-pictures#img-10
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Wile E. Coyote


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Hatty wrote:
In Iceland 'approximately 1,000 years ago' there were trees they say but "within three centuries" there weren't.


Who would have thought it, your manly vikings got the urge to settle down round about then and start chopping trees?

Still, life is a bit more complicated....

The Íslendingabók of Ari Thorgilsson claims that the Norse settlers encountered Gaelic monks from a Hiberno-Scottish mission when they arrived in Iceland. There is some archaeological evidence for a monastic settlement from the British Isles at Kverkarhellir cave, on the Seljaland farm in southern Iceland. Sediment deposits indicate people lived there around 800, and crosses consistent with the Hiberno-Scottish style were carved in the wall of a nearby cave.[3][4][5] The oldest known source which mentions the name "Iceland" is an 11th-century rune carving from Gotland, while the oldest archeological finds indicating settlement date back to the 9th century. The first written source to mention the existence of Iceland is a book by the Goidelic monk Dicuil, De mensura orbis terrae, which dates back to 825. Dicuilus claimed to have met some monks who had lived on the island of Thule. They said that darkness reigned during winter but that the summers were bright enough to pick lice from one's clothing. While the veracity of this source may be questioned, there is little doubt that the inhabitants of the British Isles were aware of a sizeable land mass far up north. Additionally, Iceland is only about 450 kilometres from the Faroes which had been visited by Irish monks in the 6th century, and settled by the Norse around 650.

A cabin in Hafnir was abandoned between 770 and 880, showing that it was built well before the traditional settlement date of 874. It is thought to have been an outpost only inhabited part of the year, but it is not known whether it was built by people from Scandinavia or the British Isles.[6]


There you go British Isles.....It only goes to show the Brits are the Phoenicians are the Vikings.......which probably accounts for the fact that their wooden longboats all look the same.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Beware of Irish missionaries. Dicuil is described as a great prodigy, produced by the Abbey of Saint-Amand. (Unfortunately the abbey was 'totally destroyed by the Normans in the 9th century' for reasons unknown.)

Dicuil seems to have been a sort of Bede as his work was ‘based on first-hand evidence' of some of the peregrini to the abbey. From the Wiki article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicuil the monk’s sources were impressively erudite but there is only one manuscript to show for it and it isn't the original.
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Mick Harper
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It might simply reflect that "one of the most wooded counties" brings to mind lots of woods but if the most wooded has less than 20% woods it's not really that wooded.

Hardly the point. What percentage of Sussex looks like Dartmoor?

Deforestation occurs when humans chop down trees. Ponies stop them growing again. If an industry ends during Wiley's "Wood age" then you get a Dartmoor.

I don't understand this at all. The 'wood age' lasted from a zillion years BC to 2017 AD and shows no sign of stopping. Humans have been chopping down trees with reasonable abandon for the whole of that time. Except apparently when there are ponies. The little beasts.

These days you get a Kouquan.

Maybe so but what will Kouquan look like three thousand years after the coal is gone?
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Mick Harper
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Iceland is hugely important as the only place in the world where an artificial literary language (Old Norse as they insist on calling it) is spoken as a demotic (Icelandic as they insist on calling it) so indulge me.

The Íslendingabók of Ari Thorgilsson claims that the Norse settlers encountered Gaelic monks from a Hiberno-Scottish mission when they arrived in Iceland.

You know my view of such things

There is some archaeological evidence for a monastic settlement from the British Isles at Kverkarhellir cave, on the Seljaland farm in southern Iceland. Sediment deposits indicate people lived there around 800

When words like 'some', 'indicate' and 'around' are used you can legitimately suspect you are in the land of academic chat.

and crosses consistent with the Hiberno-Scottish style

And when 'consistent' crops up you know you are.

The oldest known source which mentions the name "Iceland" is an 11th-century rune carving from Gotland,

It's 'world record' time. Runes cannot be dated, rune carvings (are there any other sort?) cannot be dated though the medium could be if it is wood and if it has been. It's worth pointing out that runes had officially been around for five hundred years and Gotland had had the 'Gothic Bible' for five hundred years too. Officially.

while the oldest archeological finds indicating settlement date back to the 9th century.

No runes though. Pity that.

The first written source to mention the existence of Iceland is a book by the Goidelic monk Dicuil, De mensura orbis terrae, which dates back to 825. Dicuilus claimed to have met some monks who had lived on the island of Thule.

See Hatty. Thule is like Hy Brasil and El Dorado and used for many purposes and by many people up to and including Heinrich Himmler (though has gone slightly out of fashion after him for some reason).

They said that darkness reigned during winter but that the summers were bright enough to pick lice from one's clothing.

Fancy people from above the Arctic Circle knowing that!

While the veracity of this source may be questioned,

So not the first then. Since you know so much about it, would you be kind enough to say what is the first, for our (Guinness Book of) records. No? No. For some reason nobody is interested in who came second even after the the gold medallist fails the dope test.

there is little doubt that the inhabitants of the British Isles were aware of a sizeable land mass far up north.

Well, if 825 is in doubt when does this become 'little doubt'? And why, pray, have you used the unusual term 'British Isles'?

Additionally, Iceland is only about 450 kilometres from the Faroes which had been visited by Irish monks in the 6th century, and settled by the Norse around 650.

Ah, that's why. Though technically the Faroes are not part of the British Isles. Although technically they also are. That's why it is unusual to use the term.

A cabin in Hafnir was abandoned between 770 and 880, showing that it was built well before the traditional settlement date of 874.

Ooh, how interesting. With no historical evidence this must be a carbon date (you know, 820 plus or minus fifty years). You ought though in fairness to have mentioned that 770-880 is not only 'well before' 874 it is also contemporary with it and even after it.

It is thought to have been an outpost only inhabited part of the year, but it is not known whether it was built by people from Scandinavia or the British Isles.

I think that covers everybody, doesn't it? Not Eskimos, Red Indians, Spaniards or Dutch but since it is 'not known' we can service all reasonable requests.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Mick Harper wrote:

It is thought to have been an outpost only inhabited part of the year, but it is not known whether it was built by people from Scandinavia or the British Isles.

I think that covers everybody, doesn't it? Not Eskimos, Red Indians, Spaniards or Dutch but since it is 'not known' we can service all reasonable requests.


You might but.

All roads lead to Rome.

All shipping lanes lead to the Vikings.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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All Roads lead to Rome.

https://openclipart.org/download/221384/All-Roads-Lead-To-Rome.svg

In actual fact I have erred again as

the world as known by Europeans is a lot bigger now than it was in the Middle Ages, and all its roads can’t actually all lead to Rome because of, you know, oceans.


https://creators.vice.com/en_au/article/9an8gy/do-all-roads-lead-to-rome-the-answer-is-surprisingly-beautiful

This (the lot bigger) is I suspect incorrect, their world was larger and rounder, and that is is why you need Phoenicians or vikings.


Still Wiley has another idea:

All historical roads led to Rome.

I guess it's because of its monuments, coinage and its Latin, ie civilisation, and its tendency to be sacked and always rebuilt in the style of the original.

Historical sacks of city of Rome


Battle of the Allia (390 or 387/6 BC), by the Gauls under Brennus
Sack of Rome (410), by the Visigoths under Alaric
Sack of Rome (455), by the Vandals under Geiseric
Sack of Rome (546), by the Ostrogoths under Totila
Sack of Rome (1084), by the Normans under Robert Guiscard
Sack of Rome (1527), by the mutinous troops of Holy Roman Emperor Charles V


http://www.history.com/news/6-infamous-sacks-of-rome

Rome was also burnt down by Nero in AD 64
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Wile E. Coyote


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http://www.ancientimports.com/cgi-bin/category.pl?id=79

The bronze dolphin coinages of ancient Olbia are one of the most interesting bronze coinages of the Black Sea area. They are unique in both shape and format. Olbia Thrace was located in the area of modern Bulgaria and Ukraine and was populated by Greek peoples. It is interesting and quite unusual that the Olbians adopted a casting method and the dolphin shape rather than the traditional round coinage of their neighbors and indeed the entire Greek world. The reason for this is fairly simple. It is common knowledge that even to this day there is a large population of bottle-nose dolphins in the Black Sea and the native peoples would have seen these playful creatures almost daily. Bottle-nose dolphins are the easy to train, playful dolphins that you will see in aquariums and water shows. The Olbians evidently enjoyed the dolphins to the extent that they pattered their coinage after them. There may also have been a religious significance as ancient Greek Mythology places the dolphin, Delphinus, as the "Sacred Fish" which appears as a theme many times in Greek mythology. Once a dolphin helped Poseidon locate the mermaid Amphitrite whom he brought back to his golden palace to be his Queen. As a reward, Poseidon placed the dolphin in the constellation Delphinus. There are many instances of dolphins coming to the aid of sailors in peril so it is not completely unreasonable that they would have patterned their coinage in the shape of their beloved dolphins.


This form of money is said to have come from tokens used in the Temple of Apollo Delphinios (Dolphin)

The Dauphin of France (strictly,) The Dauphin of Viennois (Dauphin de Viennois) (dolphin)

Don't know, maybe trying too hard.
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Mick Harper
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I'll join you in trying too hard.

The bronze dolphin coinages of ancient Olbia are one of the most interesting bronze coinages of the Black Sea area. They are unique in both shape and format.

OK, so we're in 'world record' territory.

Olbia Thrace was located in the area of modern Bulgaria and Ukraine and was populated by Greek peoples.

It was populated by Bulgarians and Ukrainians. The Greeks had trading posts.

It is interesting and quite unusual that the Olbians adopted a casting method and the dolphin shape rather than the traditional round coinage of their neighbors and indeed the entire Greek world.

It is even more interesting why the writer has elided two quite different things: a novel casting method and an unusual coinage shape. It leaves open that this is not a coinage at all but the Olbians casting their metal ingots (for export) in a characteristic form emphasising its quality. But we shall have to find out.

The reason for this is fairly simple.

It won't be. People don't use this formulation when it is.

It is common knowledge that even to this day there is a large population of bottle-nose dolphins in the Black Sea and the native peoples would have seen these playful creatures almost daily.

Simplicity itself! I predict Brexit Britain will issue currency in the shape of squirrels.

Bottle-nose dolphins are the easy to train, playful dolphins that you will see in aquariums and water shows.

I phoned my local dolphinarium and they told me it was damned difficult. I told them to get hold of some Olbians.

The Olbians evidently enjoyed the dolphins to the extent that they pattered their coinage after them.

Yes, we enjoy twelve-sided nearly round thingies. It's horses for courses.

There may also have been a religious significance as ancient Greek Mythology places the dolphin, Delphinus, as the "Sacred Fish" which appears as a theme many times in Greek mythology.

Alongside most other mammals of their acquaintance.

Once a dolphin helped Poseidon locate the mermaid Amphitrite

This may be useful since Greek trade was conducted in amphorae.

whom he brought back to his golden palace to be his Queen. As a reward, Poseidon placed the dolphin in the constellation Delphinus.

Any navigational significance here?

There are many instances of dolphins coming to the aid of sailors in peril so it is not completely unreasonable that they would have patterned their coinage in the shape of their beloved dolphins.

Not many instances and completely unreasonable.
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Mick Harper
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Not that I compulsively watch what people are saying about my Megalithic Empire YouTube but this appeared today

Dale Carpenter (1 week ago): Stonehenge was destroyed by ass holes in the mid 50s .its a reconstruction ! Funny how no archeologist studying stonehenge ever mention that ? What was that ass holes from national communist geographic magazines name .he says oh it religious .what a frucking lying scumbag !

BillyRay Valentine (7 hours ago): Hello Mr. Carpenter. You live up to your name yo. You're a real tool.
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Hatty
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All historical roads led to Rome.

This would be true in the case of Olbia, the Italian rather than the Thracian one. Olbia is a port on the north-east coast of Sardinia, handy for Lazio.

Wiki article claims
Olbia (the name is of Greek origin) is very ancient and was possibly founded by the Greeks, although the name is of Greek origin due to the Greek presence during the 7th century bc, the city was first settled by Phoenicians, according to the archaeological findings.

The name Olbia dates to Roman times, nothing to do with Greeks. A Phoenician trading post would not be unusual though the port may have been built by the Romans since Olbia was, and still is, "the main connection between Sardinia and the Italian peninsula".

Anyone who wishes to go dolphin-watching is assured that

Golfo Aranci is the only place in Sardinia which has a non-migratory colony of dolphins in the gulf. Whole families of dolphins (Bottlenose dolphins) come inside the fence bounding the boats’ forbidden area, in order to eat, tempted by the fishing installations located near the Figarolo isle. It is quite easy to see them.


Taranto on the south-east coast of Italy was and is the home of the Italian naval fleet. It was called Tarentum by the Romans

Taras, the mythological founder of the Greek city Tarentum on the south coast of Italy, rode there on a dolphin; the city adopted the image of a man riding a dolphin on their coinage.




Why are Italian cities always apparently 'founded by Greeks'?
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Hatty wrote:

Taras, the mythological founder of the Greek city Tarentum on the south coast of Italy, rode there on a dolphin; the city adopted the image of a man riding a dolphin on their coinage.




Why are Italian cities always apparently 'founded by Greeks'?


If you look closer Taras is astride a long boat with a long nosed horses head he sits behind the sail (dorsal fin). Maybe.
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